Ep 214 Promoting Your Book (and You) on Podcasts with Michelle Glogovac

Pencils&Lipstick podcast · Jan 22, 2024

Transcript

Hey everyone, welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. This is Kat Caldwell.

It is January 22nd, 2024 and this is episode 219. Today I have a guest with me. Her name is Michelle Glogevac and we are going to talk to you guys about pitching podcasts and all the other things that Michelle does. She's been working in the podcast industry and helping clients get into this industry for years now. I wanted to have her on because I think it's important as we start this brand new year and we have all of our goals ready to realize the marketing behind our books and to give you the resources on how and where to market your book. Podcasting is definitely one of those places. As I tell Michelle in this interview, I have seen this pop up in several conventions and writing circles, everyone telling authors to pitch podcasts. And yes, absolutely, but the problem with that is that very few people say where, how, when, why. All the different little things that you should know as far as podcasting goes. And then there's podcasting and there is video blogging and there's all these different places that you can promote your book, both nonfiction and fiction. So Michelle has written a nonfiction book, How to Get on Podcasts. Sorry, her book is called How to Get on Podcasts. But this is applicable to both nonfiction writers and fiction writers. And it has a lot to do with just who you are and how to pitch yourself. And I have to say, I am not the greatest at doing this. I love it when people pitch me to be on the podcast. And in case you're inspired by this, I take writers who have published three books or who have a, let's say a topic to bring to the table for writers.

So those are my one and only criteria. So if you would like to pitch me, that's awesome. You can find me on all the social media as you know, or catcoldwell.com. But I want to give you guys more resources this year. I tried to find people in the industry who can help you. And I think marketing is just one of those things that everything's always changing. And it's really difficult to market yourself. Like some of you out there are great at it. But I would venture a guess that 85% of us, if not more of us writers, are not great at marketing ourselves.

We just don't like talking about ourselves. So today's interview is going to be about podcasting and how it affects the world and how you can get on it. And I really encourage you guys to go out and spend the $25 on the book, How to Get on Podcasts. Especially if, well, I would say, especially if you have one book and that's your only book and that's what you are going to leave your legacy with, you're going to want to use podcasts. If you are going to write more than one book, you're probably going to want to get on podcasts. And I will say, I'm going to go get the book because I have books coming out. And Michelle is right. We might as well use this medium to promote both ourselves and our books. Right. So I hope that you enjoy this show before we go into the interview. If you guys would.

It is 2024. And so now I need some reviews that reflect that date. So if you haven't reviewed the show, would you please review the show, especially on Apple Podcasts? But if you're on Spotify, you could review on Spotify as well. I just really appreciate you guys who stick with me. Those who are new, anybody who's listening, I appreciate you. Just let me know how you feel about the show. You can also find me on Instagram at Kat Caldwell author. On Facebook at Kat Caldwell author and Instagram also. I have pencils and lipstick all spelled out for the podcast there. You can also find me on Kat Caldwell dot com and you can pitch me there or you can sign up for my writer's newsletter for my readers newsletter.

But if you enjoy the show and if you plan on listening to podcasts in 2024, please hit subscribe and you will always get the new episode downloaded directly to your favorite app. So with that little promo out of the way, let's get in to the interview with Michelle. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to pencils and lipstick. I'm Kat Caldwell. And today I have with me Michelle Glogevec. Did I do that right? You did. Yes. Michelle is on the show to talk to us about, well, a little bit about her life, her new book coming out and especially for maybe nonfiction and also fiction authors on marketing and podcasting. So getting our books out there on podcast. So thank you so much, Michelle, for coming to the show. Thank you for having me, Kat. I'm excited to talk to you. Thank you. So you have an extensive background, let's say, and I could read your bio. But why don't you introduce yourself instead to us and tell us a little bit about about Michelle. Perfect. Thank you. I am Michelle Glogevec. I am the podcast matchmaker, the CEO and founder of the MLG Collective, which is a podcast public relations agency, the host of My Simplified Life podcast and author of How to Get on Podcasts. For 18 years, I actually sold jet fuel to corporate flight departments because I needed a part time job in college and could walk to the airport. And then they gave me a salary and benefits. So I stuck with it.

Yes. So that was not my podcast is not my background. But in 2018, I was laid off and decided, what can I do that allows me to make money, stay at home with my two young kids and really feel like I'm making a difference for the world they're growing up in? And that's when I discovered podcasts and sharing stories and tips and knowledge. And I just felt like this is the platform that I needed to be involved in the industry. And I went full in. And here I am six years later, seven years. Yeah, six years later, doing everything podcast related. So marketing and all that you didn't you didn't really have a background in. It was mostly sales. It was mostly sales. I did. I did work with the marketing team in my corporate career. I also did a lot of networking events. I was on boards for regional groups, so a lot of sponsorships, a lot of public speaking. So I did a lot of things that have translated over to what I do now. But I also felt because I've had to sit down and answer this question many times of how did you go from aviation to podcasting? And it really comes down to the relationships and the people.

You know, I didn't I think jets are sexy, but jet fuel, it's like it's gas and it just goes in an airplane. And there's nothing really glamorous about that per se. But I loved the people that I worked with. I love the clients. I could tell you the birthdays and the anniversaries and who's having a baby and all that. And that's really transferred over to what I do now is connecting with other people, listening to their stories and knowing those details about lives. Of course. So before we get into your book and so like My Simplified Life, is that the first podcast that like that's the one that you started and you continue with? Or how has that worked? That is the first one I launched in 2019. There's over 200 episodes. And I really launched it because part of me thought it's kind of a legacy type of thing where my voice is being recorded for my kids, my thoughts and opinions.

They'll never have to wonder what did mom think about this? It became a selfish project of getting to interview people that I wanted to talk to. You know, there's no better, easier way to pitch someone that you want to talk to than say, I have a show. Would you like to be on it? And then that's why I started mine. It's the best. I'm like, I'm so selfish. I get to read the books of the authors that come on. I get to meet incredible people and they've all turned into great friendships down the road. So it's totally selfish in that aspect. You know, it is great to have as a marketing tool for your business too. But I'm totally selfish on. I interviewed those I want to talk to and get to know. And so that's why I put it out there.

Yeah, that's what I did it. I was like, I want to ask authors how they did this. Hey, it's so much fun. The questions, you know, and I'll give you a platform. So then what came was that what came first? Like you were just you like, oh, this podcasting thing is taking off. So I'm going to start a podcast or like the MLG collective or the pod podcast matchmaker. Like, how do all of these sort of intertwine together in your business? So when I was laid off, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew that there were podcasts, but I didn't know how to listen to one. Didn't know the purple button on my iPhone was how you listen to them. And a woman from my birthing class with my son years ago said there's a life in business coach. She's launching a podcast. You should listen. And I went, but I don't know how. And that's when she's like, yeah, the purple button. Listen to it. So this woman was talking about how we all have a purpose and a passion in life. And I was like, yeah, I got to figure out what that is for me.

What can I do? And so I was posting on my social media of like, I'm on this journey. I don't know what I'm doing. Don't know where it's going to go. And but I'm listening to the show and hopefully, you know, I figure out what I'm going to do. And the host reached out to me and said, do you want to pitch me to be on podcasts because you obviously like the content I'm producing? It resonates with you. You're already promoting it. I was like, wait, this is a thing. And so I started pitching her. And then since she had a show, I learned everything that went into producing a show. Then I launched my own show. But I fell in love with the pitching part because it allowed me to get to know people, to share stories. And really, I like to say that it podcast changed lives one voice at a time. We're making the world a better place with the empathy we can build, the tips and knowledge. You know, somebody out there is going through what you've already gone through and they need to hear your story. How did you solve that problem? How did you build your business? How did you write that book?

What were the steps you took? And to be able to get all of that information on a free podcast and listen in to another conversation is the most beautiful thing I think that there is. So I went all in on I'm only going to pitch clients. I'm going to work with authors and entrepreneurs and advocates and nonprofits and really promote their stories to get out into the world, to help other people. So when when you started this pitching, I mean, it's been so I started mine in 2019. You're started in 2018. So like it has grown exponentially. Like there are tons of podcasts out there. A lot have closed their doors. And the weird thing about podcasting the Internet is you might go looking for a podcast and you'll start listening and be like, oh, they stopped this like five years ago. So so how was that journey in learning how to pitch and find those podcasts for the clients that came along in all their different little fields and things? Well, that's really one of the key steps in our research is do they still exist? When was the most recent episode? Because if they haven't done anything in 30 days, then chances are they're not. And we did see a huge there was a spike in new shows around covid. And then they all kind of flopped because people didn't realize that you have to be consistent and you have to put out episodes. And it was funny because although we saw a lot spike, we also saw a lot die down when covid hit, because now you had kids at home and you had spouses at home and now everybody's at home.

And how do I record and when do I do it? And I was lucky in that I started my show when my kids were little. So they know what a closed door means. They know that mom's in the closet recording a podcast. You know, we didn't have this luxury of everybody was gone. My husband works from home, too. So I was like, covid, what? Like nothing changed in our household. We were still here. But that is a big a big deal of, you know, is the podcast even still around? Do they take guests? These are all things that we look at another one like to the some.

Some don't take guests. No, some are just solo episodes. I'm like, wow, you got to create a lot of content. A lot of work. I would rather chat with somebody and be like, let's talk about you. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, different categories. I work with a ton of different clients. But over the years, I've built a Rolodex of podcasts that, you know, no longer require a unique pitch of I've listened to your show. We've already been through all of that. So there's an established relationship and I can say, hey, I have this new client and I think that they'd be a great match.

Here's their background info. And it's much easier once you have those relationships. It's that initial pitch with a new show of, OK, now we have to connect. And I got to tell you, I'm listening to your show and what resonated with me. And let's get personal and then introduce the client. Yeah. So, yeah, because it's interesting. You do get pitched a lot of impersonal pitches. I'll be like, it's a lot of copy and paste out there. No, I have a whole folder called Bad Pitches, and that's where those end up. And I put some bad pitch examples in the book because like you can't. There has to be there's no standard in podcasting. And I think that's a big issue. Anyone can start one. Anyone can be on one.

It's low cost entry. You know, all you need to do is record and you can put it out. And it's like, well, but should you? No. It's that other question, should you? So before we keep going, because we want to talk about like, since you're the expert, I'm pitching. And because I mentioned the fact that podcasts come and go, is it it's still worth it to pitch them? Like, what happens if the podcast goes away? Like, can somebody still listen to that episode or that show? Like, is there at all a concern for somebody who's pitching a podcast for any author listening to this?

Like, why would I do it if in case it leaves? Like, is that URL still there? Is it out in the ether? It's still there just as you found it. And it's still there, right? It's still out there. And if you're promoting it and if the host has promoted it properly, then it will not just be on all of the listening platforms. There'll be show notes, you know, on websites. There will be an Instagram. It'll be on all of the different social media platforms as well. So people can still search for it and find it.

I create Spotify playlist for all of my clients, so they all live in one spot and they're all there. So, yeah, you can still it's still worth it to pitch it and to be on podcasts, even if they, you know, die down eventually. They're still out there. OK, so it sort of lives on even if the host. Yes, it's the Internet. Yes. That's what we tell our kids, right? That will live. Right. Yes. All right.

So this is this is a good reason to live on. So what then? So you're started with the clients. What makes you think podcasts are still relevant? So if we're talking to my audience is mostly writers, lots of fiction and some nonfiction, whether they're going into your traditional route and like even traditional route, you're going traditional route with your with your book. Have you had to promote your book yourself? Like to talk to all those people wanting to do traditional route? Well, I am my own publicist. I actually I was exchanging an email with a journalist this morning and she goes, please have your publicist send this to me. And I went, well, that's me. I am my publicist and I will send you an email. Yes.

McGraw Hill does not have a publicist in house. So it is me, myself and I. And even those that do have publicists in house, I have seen authors hire myself, hire other publicists to do the promotion of the book. Yes. OK. And our podcast still. Yes. They you know, they're still growing. We're still seeing an increase in shows there. The industry is to close this year at four billion dollars, and it should be up to five billion dollars. So there's a lot. It's a growing industry and I don't think it's going anywhere. You know, we've seen with Substack now having a whole podcast area on that platform. You see that a lot of podcasters are now turning to the vlog, not vlog casters, but they're doing the video cast part two and implementing more video. So I don't see it going anywhere. I think it's really just starting to, you know, catch on more and more. And it's becoming more accessible. It's been around for over 20 years. Podcasts have. Yeah. But like myself, I didn't know how to listen to one until 2018. And now people are not only listening to them, but they're understanding how to get on them and how to create them. So I think it's still going to get bigger and bigger. Interesting. OK. So then if if the the listeners out there have a nonfiction book that they're working on, let's go with nonfiction first. Like, what what do you tell people?

Excuse me. I'm like, maybe they're not big podcast listeners. Like, how do they wade through this podcast world to specifically to use it for their books? So like, how have you used it? Your book is called How to Get on Podcast. So I assume you know a lot about this. But how would you wade through this this giant mass of of media in order to find the ones that are are probably going to have the listeners that are right for that book? Well, first, I think you need to think about who is it that you want to reach? Who is your ideal reader? And that's going to be your ideal listener. OK. And you're not going to go on to promote your book per se. You're going on to a podcast interview to share of yourself, to share your knowledge, your journey, your story. And at the end of every interview, you will be asked, where can people find you or how can they buy your book? So that's your promotion opportunity. If you have a nonfiction book, then I am sure from every chapter that can be a speaking topic. Right. For fiction authors, you know, it's going to be different because you don't want to give away the spoilers of the books. Right. And either way, you want to share of yourself because people want to know the authors behind the books they love. We want to hear from you. And that's why podcasts are so great for authors, because it's such an introverted community to begin with. Yes. Showing up for a podcast interview is just having a cup of coffee with someone new and a conversation that everybody gets to eavesdrop in on. But you don't look at it that way. So, you know, what is it if you have a writing ritual that's unique to you? It's one of the questions I ask every author of, you know, well, what is your ritual? Do you light a candle or do you, you know, get up in the morning and you run to the basement? Do you do it out in the garden?

What does that ritual look like? How did you come up with the premise for your book? You know, is there parts of your life that are replicated in the book that none of us know about? I interviewed Genevieve Wheeler, who's the author of Adelaide, and she told me that every tattoo that Adelaide in the book has is actual tattoos that she has. Oh, I was like, that's incredible, because you don't know that just by reading the book or reading her biography. But in having these conversations, we're getting to know the author on a personal level. OK. So go into it as what can you share about yourself and then start researching podcasts that, you know, certain keywords. And you can if you want to do the literary community, you know, look up author podcasts. But I always like to remind people as well that you wrote a book. But is it the literary community and other authors who are going to buy your book? Or is it are you targeting, you know, women's lit? Is there something else that you are targeting? So keep that in mind that an author doesn't have to just be on author podcasts unless your book is for authors expand, you know, go elsewhere and look at where the listeners are that are going to be your ideal readers and search on Apple podcasts. Google it. Search on there's, you know, on Podchaser. They have a free search engine. They also have a paid one, but you can search for free. And I love to also search on Instagram. Use the hashtags, you know, female podcasters, business podcasts, finance podcasts.

If you just put in some keywords, you're going to find all of these shows because they're being promoted by the hosts. Right. So this is how you find them. And then that's when you do the further digging of are they current? Do they take guests and going deeper in that sense? But I like how you say to not really go forth with the idea of like, how can I promote my book? It's more about like, how can you? Who can you find that you can have a conversation with that could then come back? Right. Yes. Like this relevant conversation, it's got to be relevant to their audience. Right. It can't just be like, I have this book and your people are going to want to read it. It's like, well, I don't know if my people are going to want to read it. Like, what do you have to talk about? Because the podcast is audio, right? Like in the moment, somebody wants to not have a commercial, right? They want exactly listen to a conversation. Yeah. It's just like if you're pitching a product or service, you know, nobody wants to hear how great you are at pitching your clients to be on podcasts.

It's like, who cares? Like, this doesn't give me the tips on how I can do it myself. And, you know, I always I go back to when I started listening to podcasts, I heard Amy Porterfield talk about giving as much information in your free resources as possible and not being afraid to give away so much for free, because if you give great information away for free, then the receiving person will say, oh, if she does this for free, imagine what you'll get if you pay her. How much more information? So that's I mean, that's really why I wrote the book. I'm like, here you $24 is not free, but it's a lot cheaper than, you know, come work with me. Right. Right. Right. And I'm giving you everything that I know. So that's how I look at it for any podcast that you pitch yourself to, any resource you give is to just give away what you know. Don't be afraid of your secret sauce or whatever, because you're unique just as you are. And, you know, if somebody wants to replicate what I do, good for them. But it's a lot of work.

So they have to be able to put in the time and the effort, you know, in order to really replicate whatever it is that I do or you do in order to be successful at it. So don't be afraid to give away as much as you can. That's so interesting. Do you think that's a kind of newer thing happening, like a newer phenomenon of this giving away? Well, it's weird because it's like the Internet. Right. So I don't know. It's like anything's Google. You can Google anything, you know, and that was part of my pitching of the book to a publisher was I had some feedback of, well, can't someone just Google it? Well, yeah, you can Google how to pitch yourself if you want. But there's a lot more that goes into it. And there's a whole why behind it. There's you know, there's much more that goes into it than just, yeah, send an email to a host and pitch yourself. We can also Google the symptoms of my raspy voice, but I'm pretty sure I should just go to the doctor. Like, yeah, I mean, in any listener out there who has a business, I mean, I coach writers and I've had many people say, well, I'll just Google this.

Yes, you can absolutely do that. But it's nice to have a book in your hands. We're like chapter pitch. OK. Yes. Yeah. And it's really, you know, a very much how to like sit down and think about this question. This is how you're going to create this topic. And this is why you're creating it. And while you're doing this, this is what the host is up to, too, because I think that's it's not a secret, but it's something that a lot of guests don't realize what goes into creating a podcast episode.

How many hours that takes? What is the host doing? So I'm giving all of that away of, you know, show some appreciation to because thanking your host by posting in your stories for 24 hours is not a thank you. It's not repurposing. It is lazy. So you get all of those tips on how to repurpose into greater marketing content that ultimately also is a way of saying thank you to the host. Right. Right. And the whole thing is related to a dinner party because I love dinner parties and happy hours. And a podcast show is basically someone's home that you're being invited into. And you're getting that invitation to come to dinner. And so how do you show up as a great guest, whether it's on a show or in a home? You know, are you dressing the part? Are you engaging with others? And how do you say thank you? Did you send a text the next morning? Did you send a handwritten thank you card? You know, how how are you doing that? And did you show up with something in the beginning? Did you bring a nice candle?

Did you bring a free resource? So it compares all of that for the entire journey. Yeah, I have to say, as and you probably have this experience, too, is like you will actually get more listeners if you're proud of the fact that you were on a podcast enough to tell people. Yes, I know a lot of writers, especially they like you said, it's an introverted world. Like lots of them are nervous and they tell me that they're nervous when they come on. And I think sometimes they're very nervous to like tell people, you know, like, I don't know if you're going to want to listen to me, but you will actually have more listeners and therefore more audience to your book and to who you are if you share it. Because it's almost like a validation of like in the, you know, and technically the SEO and everything goes up and the algorithm and all that. But you will you will get more widespread. Your your net will be cast. Yes, yes, absolutely. And I know it's hard now that I am an author. And I remember the first time I was introduced, it was last February where one person knew that I had written a book.

It had not yet been sold. And she's like, everybody meet my author friend, Michelle. And I was like, what are you doing? Why would you introduce me as an author? And then I was in certain rooms where they're like, would all the authors stand up? And I was like, I'm not standing up like what? My book's not out yet. Like, what if you do that? We're like, what? I don't know. And people are nudging. They're like, you wrote a book. I'm like, yeah, but like, it's not out yet.

Like, does now. So I get it. You know, I come on. It's very easy for me to say, yes, you should just show up and do this. But I totally get it that it is hard. And that's why, you know, having these conversations as podcast interviews is great because you don't have to say, look at me, look at me. And then you're just sharing the episode as a thank you to the host later on. So it's still not a total look at me, look at me. It's really it's your duty to say thank you.

It feels a little less me, me, me. Right. Like, oh, yes, so much fun to be on this podcast, you know, and all this stuff. Like, do you have anything in your book about what you do afterwards? Is that like? Yes. There's a whole section on repurposing into greater content marketing. Yes, it's I think the chapter is called Your Name in Lights and how you need to promote it, how you can promote it. There's links to templates in Canva for the graphics. Wow, you really do give everything away. I do. I do. So, you know, so you can just plug in the cover art, you know, swap that out. The book actually has examples of what I do for myself.

So you can visually see it in addition to going to the links and utilizing those templates as well. OK. So why did you choose in this day and age of so many different media? Like you could have started a sub stack. I was going to say subplot sub stack or a medium or made an online course. Like, why did you choose a book for how to get on podcast? I am an avid reader ever since I was a kid. I love books and I I wanted to be an author. I really I was like, you know what, I want to write a book. I don't know on what I don't know on how another one of those journeys. Like, I don't know how to do it, but I'm going to figure it out. And I interviewed Jenny Nash, the book coach, author, accelerator on my show one day, and it turned into a hot seat. And I was like, I want to write a book. And she goes, well, your first book should be on what you know and what you're known for. So that should be your first book. There's that answer. OK, well, then I will be writing on how to get on podcasts. And I outlined it immediately. It became it was very easy because I knew what I wanted to write. I knew what I wanted to get out. I hired a book coach.

She said that usually she does like six months. I went, oh, no, no, no, no, no. We're doing three months because this book is going to get written. I will hit every deadline. Cheever like number one. I am like, yes. I'm like, give me a goal. I want to crush it. And I'm also very cheap. So I was like, I will pay you for three months. We don't need both six months. And so we knocked out the proposal in three months. And then I went to the querying of agents and landed one. And then while she was going for publishers, I finished the book. And I started December twenty, twenty one. And the book comes out January twenty, twenty four. That's pretty amazing because the publishing industry takes forever. Yes. Yes. McGraw Hill was very quick on it. So and I again, I was like, give me your deadlines. I will crush them. And I would turn around every edit that they wanted, every proof. I'm like, here you go. I'm done. Here you go.

And luckily, their team was doing the same thing. So it went to the printers even earlier than we had anticipated. Right. Oh, that's nice, too, because it's well, I'm sure there's a lot of stuff in there that will be relevant down the road. It's really relevant now. So it's nice that they're they're as quick as you are. So yes. How was that time? If you've I'm sure you've written up reports and you've done writing in your life, but this is your first book writing. Like how was that process? Did you enjoy it? I did. Yeah, I did. And I think the editing part was when I'm like, oh, my gosh, am I really looking at this again and again and again? Click, yes. All at a certain point, I was like, oh, you just want to move that. Yes, that's fine.

Like, please, can someone make those decisions for me? If you are not changing the content, that is fine. You know? Yes. At that point, I was like, no, these are fine. Please carry on. Oh, that was so quick. I'm like, yes, because it was like move a period. I don't have a problem with that. It's not going to make or break the book.

It's not going to change things. But again, I'm very goal oriented. So I told myself, you know, I had a written out piece of paper on my desk of how many words did I write today? What's my word count total? And really making sure that I was hitting those. I wrote straight through the book and didn't go back to edit any chapters until I was done. And I would think along the way of, you know, oh, in Chapter five, I should have mentioned this part. And so I'd write down a note of go back and make sure you wrote that. That's probably best. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, I would have been all over the place, I think. But I went, OK, this chapter is done. Move on. Keep going. And then I would only allow myself to go back after I had finished the entire book. So how did you what work did you do with the coach?

Was it mostly the pitch package or? I wrote the proposal. So the book marketing plan, the bio, the book comps and the first two chapters. And the first chapter was the hardest because it was all around how I create unique speaking topics for other people. And I get why people come to me because it's easy to have someone else tell you what you should speak on versus figuring it out yourself. Right. So I was glad that I had her help throughout that first chapter because it was putting into words how I do what I do when I never thought about it. It just comes naturally. And, you know, talking to someone, I'm like, oh, that you should speak on that. But why should you speak on that? So it was great for me to create this whole framework around what I do.

But that was the hardest chapter. The rest of like, this is easy. Isn't it interesting, though? It's hard to talk about yourself like it is. Yeah. Especially because you've stumbled into this and you just enjoy it. It's like because I like it. I'm good at it. I don't know. Like, what are you asking me? Yeah, it's really hard even for myself. I'm like, oh, what can I speak on what? And I'm like, these are all the questions that clients come to me and say. And it's easy to identify in others, but it's really hard to do it for yourself. So I I completely get it. It's just like me. Oh, but author. What? No. I get it. And I've been in the shoes of the listeners because, you know, it's just human nature. Right.

So would you would you go back and get a coach again? Like that was that was a good choice for you. Yeah. Oh, I loved working with her. I yeah, we're still in touch. She actually just moved into the city as well. So we're going to finally meet in person. Oh, that's so much fun. I know. Like we meet people more like friends over the Internet. And like, right. Never met you in person. That's so weird. Yes. I know some of my closest friends are my Internet friends. And I'm like, oh, we should really meet in real life.

We live in a weird world. So once you got through that pitch and proposal package, did you know exactly like you had a structure to your nonfiction bucket, especially to like the nonfiction writers out there? Because sometimes, like you just said, what you know is difficult to bring into 150 pages. You know, like bringing all that in is did you work with the coach on that as well of like what specifically you wanted to hit on in the book? I had my table of contents already written before. I hired her. Yeah, I already knew this is what I want to hit on. This is what I think needs to be included. So all of that was really done. I came pretty prepared to her. And it was just, you know, how do I write this proposal?

Where do I start? What gets included? That was really that. And then, you know, having her help me with the first two chapters of, OK, I've written that. And now you're someone who doesn't know the podcast industry. Read it and tell me, do you understand what I'm saying from someone who's never been on a podcast? So that was really helpful to have, you know, an outsider's perspective versus, you know, if I were to come to you and be like, hey, what do you think of this? And you're all, oh, yeah, it makes sense. I'm a podcaster, too. So I get it. You know, you could get five five steps and you'd still get it. Yeah, I really get it. So that was very helpful. Yeah.

And she was great. Deadlines every two weeks. And once again, I'm like, yes, give me the deadline and then I can hit it or exceed it. That was what I thrived on. Oh, that's very cool. Very cool. So all you achievers out there just give yourself a deadline, maybe push it up, squeeze it into three months instead of six months. That's so funny. So as as a nonfiction writer, when you're coming into like you're writing specifically about something that you really know, do you like that advice that you that Jenny Nash gave you? Like, that's your first book. That's what you do. You narrow it down to that one thing that you are doing in the moment, I guess, because you know lots of stuff, I'm sure. You don't just know about podcasts. I know so much. No, I am brilliant. But did you like that being able to take that advice and just run with it with the with your first book? Yeah, because it made sense to there was a lot of other things that I thought I could write a book on and but people don't know me because of it. You know, they don't know me because of this is my opinion and this is why. And I back it up, you know, other other subjects. But this everyone knows this is what I do. It is my platform. And it made a lot of sense to me of, yeah, I know how to do this. And like, why wouldn't I write a book on it? There is no other book like it.

There's no book traditionally published on it. You need at least six books to purchase to get all of the information that I'm providing in one book. So, yeah, it made sense to me. And then knowing that there was nothing like it, I was like, I need to get this out there quickly. I wanted to be the first one to come to market with this book because nobody had written about it, and especially in the way that I'm writing about it. So, yeah, I definitely loved the advice and I'm grateful for it. Yeah, that makes business sense, doesn't it? Like that you get you just sort of follow the tracks of what you do. Like you are the podcast matchmaker. So you work with clients like naturally. It would be kind of odd to be like, I just put out a book on how to move from jet fuel sales. Yeah. Yeah. You can do that now. Right. Like, right. Or I can work on a novel, you know. Right. Right. Now I'm working with authors. And so it would make sense of, oh, she wrote this book on how to get on a podcast. She works with authors. Now she's written her own, you know, fiction books. So, yeah. So it just sort of it's the branding. And that is something that like. Authors, a lot of authors, I will say, I will put that in there, struggle with like that branding of themselves. Right. So you talked about like not going on a podcast only to pitch your book, but to talk about yourself or to like your experiences or have a story to tell or have this conversation with someone. So how do you help authors when you're working with them, like understand that branding in that business sense to I have a book, but now I have to go talk. Well, and I like to also remind them that is this your last book? Is it your first and your last one? Or do you plan on writing more books because we have to continue getting you out there and promote whatever it is that you're promoting that book. But let people get to know you, because if you are promoting your brand of yourself and letting people get to know you, then they will continue to want to buy whatever books you're producing. So the brand is, you know, it's you. You are your own brand as an author. And so people want to get to know you.

Who is that person behind the book, behind the pen name? And we can't do that unless we meet you at a book signing. Most parts, you know, during Covid, the book signings went away. So podcasts allow you to do that in a comfortable setting. They allow you to have multiple interviews in a day. I'm doing three today and I'm not having to leave. I'm not getting on a plane, but I'm reaching a ton of people literally from my home. So it allows flexibility. It allows me to be comfortable. I get to just chat with you. And I'm not worried about, you know, it has my hair and my makeup. I don't even have lipstick on and it's a lipstick show. Right. Actually, I don't today either.

That's terrible. Nobody needs to know. It's fine. You know, but but to be able to, you know, just be yourself and show up. That that's your brand. Let people get to know you. And that's, you know, the quote unquote author brand that you need to build. Yeah. So what do you tell people? Like a lot of people come on my show nervous, like quite nervous. And I remember being nervous even starting the show. So I will sit with people, you know, we'll chat in my. My show doesn't have questions beforehand. So there are like different shows out there. But what do you tell first your clients on like nerves or just like it's a new medium for a lot of people? Like I'm in my 40s and I've kind of grown up with it. But you hit like 15 above and like it's it's probably no one's ever asked them to be on like a radio interview show, you know, like that used to be a big deal. So how do you deal with nerves and just like preparing sort of for this interview? Yes.

And I have clients that are in their 60s and 70s. So it is the whole gamut. Yeah. And there's actually a section on the book on how to prepare for the podcast. And, you know, we can start simple with do you have your tech set up? You know, do you know how to use your microphone when you plug it in? Is it working? Do you know what platform the show is going to be on? Is it on Zoom? Did you get an install update? And I literally had a Zoom call before talking to you. And then as I logged on for you, I did a few minutes early and I went now updating. Yes. You never know when it's going to happen. But, you know, give yourself a few extra minutes.

Do you know if you can log on to the platform on Firefox or does it take Safari or does it take Chrome? Knowing this ahead of time to relieve any of those tech kind of issues. Is it going to be video? You're allowed to ask these questions if you don't know. If you don't want to ask, then show up looking good. You know, have your hair done, you know, whatever you need. So you can be prepared in that sense. Look up the podcast host. Google them. You should have already listened to an episode or two before you even pitched. But go refresh your memory on what the show is about, what the host is about, because then you're not going, oh, who am I talking to? What's your name again? You're doing three a day. Yes. I'm like, OK, I've got a few minutes in between. Yes, I know who I'm talking to next. You know, get comfortable with who you're talking to and know what the show is about. I'm including playlists on confidence and calming. I give links to, you know, meditations of, you know, maybe you do need to get into this quiet head space, but prepare yourself. If there's a certain aspect of your story that's really good. And I share this because I had a client who told me her entire journey. And then I interviewed her on my show and she didn't mention the biggest key point of why she does what she does. And it was based on her past experience. And I knew what her story was, so I knew to prompt that answer. But I said, you should write it on a post it that you need to make sure that you mention this, because that is what people want to hear. So if there's a part of your story that you need something to jog your memory, write down a post it and put on your screen. Nobody is going to see it, but you will remember it. Take your time. Most shows.

Most shows are edited. So if you need to take a moment, take a moment. Pause, you know, don't be afraid to say one second. There's times where I will be asked a question and I will start talking and talking. And then I'm like, what was what was the original question? Because I totally just went off on a tangent. I'm sorry. You know, don't be afraid to be yourself and remember that it's simply a conversation with another person. So, you know, as long as you're not going there and saying, I am fantastic, I am the best person like that we all have. Right. They're interesting to listen to. Well, that conversation went somewhere else than I was planning on. Yeah. Yes. And, you know, some of it depends on the host, too. You know, I've had people show up where you can tell that they're physically closed and like they don't know what to say. And then all of a sudden I'll think about, OK, what was something in their book or their bio? And I'll bring it up. And I have visibly seen people relax because you just mentioned some personal detail. And so they know that you've done your research, too. And you've just found the topic that makes them comfortable to speak on. Right. Right. And that's why I really love your advice to people that have sort of like a post that note or something, because you can get into a conversation. And I have notes here like I don't write up questions beforehand, but I have notes because you can like kind of go down a rabbit trail and have a great conversation and then shut down and be like, oh, no, I forgot to ask about this. You know, yes. So, yes, especially if it's nonfiction or if you've pitched and you're a fiction writer, but you've pitched on a certain topic. Be sure to have like those notes because that's what you're going to want out there. Right. Like, that's the reason that you've pitched it. So I do have one more question before we go into like where people can find yourself. I have heard that a lot of people are starting to put their podcasts on like paywalls. How what do you feel about that and how like do you do have clients pitch those podcasts?

Have you had any work with those? I don't know. What are your thoughts? The reason I love podcasts is because they are free. And and I feel like that is how we help each other by sharing our stories and by making it accessible to everyone. You know, I know there's some that might have, you know, a special like instead of buying my book, maybe I have a whole, you know, paid podcast that you have to you have to pay for it, like a substack to get that extra information. I get that. We do not pay to be interviewed on a podcast. I will let a client know that, yeah, the show said yes. But by the way, it's three hundred dollars. It's five thousand dollars. It's twenty five dollars. It is up to you as the client to make the decision. But my professional advice charge it. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well, if anyone wants to pay to be on my. Oh, my opinion is if you're paying to be interviewed, then that's an advertisement that is not PR. And that should give you the right to show up and say, I am the best.

I do this. This is and to promote yourself. That's what you're paying for. Some sort of guarantee like. Right. And there was one this morning, I belong to the Authors Guild. And some someone said they were asked to be on a show, but she wanted three hundred dollars. And does anyone think it's worth it? And the whole consensus was no. Well, I went deeper because I have access to monthly downloads. And I went, well, she only gets 700 monthly downloads.

She's got eight reviews. I don't know what you're paying for, because a sponsor would not pay that much based on listens. So the answer is no, you know, don't do it. And the podcast host said, well, it's it's my it's my business. It's a business tool. Well, no, it's your marketing tool and it's a cost of doing business. So you should eat the cost because you're going to write it off anyway. So I disagree with paying to be interviewed on a podcast. I do, too. I'm very that's a heated one.

That might be another. Yeah, that's so interesting because it is to me, it's a marketing tool. I mean, I I consider it one of the pillars of my business, but it's the marketing tool. It's the way that I get to talk to people like that is the whole the whole point. And but you did mention like you have access to downloads. Downloads. That is something that I tell people because I'm in a lot of author groups and pitching a podcast is, you know, something that a lot of people are saying they're not giving a whole lot of details to it. That's why I wanted you on the show, because people say, yeah, go pitch a podcast. Like, well, there's a lot to it. You can't always find detailed stats like you have to pay for that. You can't. And I just find I do pay for it.

Yes, you do. But most what I and what I tell people who don't pay for it is look at how many reviews are on Apple. Look at how many Instagram followers they have, not only how many followers, but then go look at their posts and see what the engagement is like. Because you can pay for followers. You can pay for reviews. Right. Do the numbers correlate to each other? Does the engagement rate correlate to how many followers they have? You can also go to ListenNotes.com. That's a free platform to see what their rankings are based on the consistency of how much they put out. And, you know, a top 10 percent globally ranked podcast, that sounds amazing, but it doesn't take much to be a top 10 percent because so many just aren't there anymore. They're not producing an episode every week. So, I mean, I'm a top 2 percent and I'm like, I know I'm not a big deal on my podcast. Like that's it's not as long as I'm putting something out there and people are listening consistently, then you're globally ranked very high. But look at all of these things that are all free that you can access to really get an idea of, you know, what kind of listeners are there? Is it accurate? You know, charge $300 and you have 700 people listening every month. It's not it doesn't warrant it. And knowing how much you pay to produce a show, you know, there's ways to do it cost effectively. And if you're doing $300 an episode, then I want to get paid $300 an episode because I will make money then. Yeah, it doesn't cost me 300. I've been in this for five years.

You've been in it for six. So it doesn't cost me 300. Yeah, but it's good to know, right? Because there are people who are, I mean, we're very excited about our books. And especially if it's a memoir, if it's your business, that you've written this great book and you really want to get it out there. Depending on where you're from or where you're coming from in business world, $300 might seem like a great deal if you think that the exchange is going to be good. So then what would what do you tell your clients on like, what is the purpose of going on a podcast? Are there, you know, a spike in sales? Like, what has your experience been? How do you tell them to see this marketing tool? So I recommend that you have a unique link for wherever you want people to go. So you can measure your own ROI because I don't know how many I will tell you how many listens a show gets a month. So I can give you that information of how many people we believe you reached. Can I correlate it to your sales? Well, no, I don't have access to your sales. So that's something you have to look at on your end, which is why I recommend, you know, do a bit.ly

link or something like that. I've had clients who, you know, they gain more clients or they see that there are more book sales right after they do an interview that goes live promotions for jobs. So it's been, you know, depending on who the client is, something always comes out of it. You know, maybe you get more speaking engagements, you get invited to be on other shows. So it's all about growth and really defining what your goal is in the first place. You know, I have I get texts all the time of when I say I like a book, then people go out and buy the book and tell me I bought this book because you said you liked it. And I'm a bookstagramer, apparently. But, you know, just that share alone is promoting book sales. So, yes, if you're on a podcast and the host is like, oh, this was a great book because I read it, then you will get sales from it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting. I tell people at minimum, you'll get better at talking. Yes. Yes. And you'll make connections. Yeah, it's great. You never know who you're going to meet.

This is very true. You never know who you're going to meet and how that connection will benefit you or the other person. Like this is what I love about podcasting. So, Michelle, where you're the name of your book, it's already out. So today, this episode goes out January 22nd, how to get on podcasts. It's already out through McGraw Hill. So where can people find you and find the book and start their pitching process to get on on podcast? You can find me at michelleglogovac.com or themlgcollective.com. I had to build an author website for that author brand. So I'm on both. I'm on Instagram at Michelle Glogovac. I'm also on TikTok at the podcast matchmaker threads. I'm in all the places.

Substack, I even have one of those now. So anywhere there is social media. I am there. Just Google it. Just Google it. And we will have the links in the show notes. Glogovac, in case you guys are listening, is G-L-O-G-O-V-A-C. So in case you're listening and you're just like, I can't see the show notes right now, keep that in your brain. But the links will be in the show notes. I say go out and buy the book because as I've said before, if you guys are in any sort of author group, everyone is telling you to go pitch a podcast and they're not telling you how. So this is going to be your one stop shop on how to do that. So thank you so much, Michelle, for coming on and telling us how to get on podcasts. Thank you so much for having me.