Ep 219 Writing Brave with Brooke Adams Law
Pencils&Lipstick podcast ·
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Transcript
SPEAKER_01
00:00:05
Hello, I'm Kat Caldwell and this is Pencils and Lipstick and it is February 12th, 2024. This is episode 217.
SPEAKER_01
00:00:18
Why is it that I'm never prepared for this? I don't know. I hope you find this endearing and not annoying. It's 217. I'm always right, but I always have to double check. So it's February. We're halfway through and Happy Valentine's Day week if you celebrate Valentine's Day. My husband and I always forget about it. So whatever. If you guys don't know already, but if you're a romance writer, you probably already know that Paula Judith Johnson has a romance summit coming out next week. And I am going to have the links in the show notes because yours truly is speaking in that summit. So I want you guys to check it out. It is a free summit that has like a VIP pass that you can buy in case you want to not follow along live, but you want to have access to all of the speakers later on. So it is going to be all about romance and writing romance, but then a lot about, you know, author business and mindset and all the things that we have to do, all the things that we talk about here. Right. And just FYI, you know, Paula was in my, taught a workshop for me. So I run monthly workshops this year. It's a little experiment I am endeavoring on offering one paid workshop a month and I teach some of them and Paula taught last month. Let me say that again. I teach some of them and then I invite people in to teach some and Paula taught last month. And she had a point in that writing a love story or writing a love story plot line is not just for romance writers. So of course, love is one of the pillars of the human existence and a lot of different genres incorporate love stories into their stories. Right. So be careful that you don't, you know, you dismiss a romance summit off the bat because you think, oh, I don't write romance. But if you write about the human existence and love ever shows up, you might want to check it out. Just saying.
SPEAKER_01
00:02:34
I'm just saying. So speaking of workshops, you are not too late to sign up for February's workshop in which we are talking about character alchemy. You better hurry up because it's this week. So you you might want to sign up really quickly. But if you can't get into this workshop this month and you're wondering what the next workshops are going to be, I encourage you to get on my writer's newsletter and check them out. You will get emails about them. I tell people about them. I think it's a great, affordable way for you to learn from different teachers as well as myself and learn different aspects of writing a story. A lot of times when we're writing a story, we don't need all the information right now. Right. So this month we're going to be working on character alchemy. Next month, we're going to do my kind of signature course of scene check in which we're going to go over a scene, what makes the scene, what makes scenes great. I have a little bit of new material for that. And then you have the opportunity to submit a small scene to me and get feedback on it. And it's very affordable. The workshop's forty seven dollars unless you get on my writer's newsletter and you get there for the early bird. And that's only thirty five. And then you can get a two thousand word scene. You can get feedback, line edit feedback. So not not a write up, but you get line edit and it will be and we'll talk about it at the workshop and you can ask questions live. And so you get all that information by signing up for my newsletter. And of course, those links are in the show notes below. So today, my guest is Brooke Adams Law. And I know that sounds like a law firm, but we're not actually talking about law today.
SPEAKER_01
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Although that's, you know, probably taxes wise, that wouldn't be a bad idea. But Brooke is actually a writer and she is a book coach and she runs a book magazine. She runs a summit every year and the writing brave summit. And she has the secrets of storytelling mastermind that she runs January to June every year as well. And she's going to get into all of those things. But what I find most interesting about Brooke is her journey to becoming a writer, her take on writer mentality and identity and really stepping into your author identity. Even before you've published in the eyes of whatever, you know, whatever the world says publishing is these days. And I think that's really interesting to talk about. It's I think she has a unique take on it. And we sort of dive into what is the norm these days? And maybe we don't want to go along with the norm. I don't know. You guys let me know. Let me know what you think about sort of what Brooke and I talk about. Do you agree with us?
SPEAKER_01
00:05:36
You're not. Brooke is an intuitive writer, so she doesn't plot everything out. And sometimes she even throws out manuscripts. So let me know what you think about that as well. And just if this resonates with you, I encourage you everything that Brooke says. If that resonates with you, go to we are writing brave dot com and check out more about Brooke, get on her writer's newsletter, find out where she's going to be, where she's teaching. Sign up for the writing brave summit and just get to know her more, especially if you are an intuitive writer. As I say in the interview, a lot of what's out there in the writing world is geared more towards the plotters and a certain way of thinking and a certain personality. And so sometimes you really have to find your people. So I encourage you to check her out at we are writing brave dot com and to listen to this interview. And of course, if you are liking the podcast, please share it with your friends and give us a review and subscribe on whatever app you are listening to this on. And if you ever want to see our lovely faces, you can find us at YouTube, at Pencils and Lipstick, and you can see the interviews there as well. So let's go meet Brooke. Welcome, Brooke, to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm excited to be here. Thank you. So we are going to talk about a lot of things, your writing journey, your coaching journey, the summits that you give. But before we get into that, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit to the audience?
SPEAKER_00
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Yeah, awesome. So my name is Brooke Adams Law. People often think I'm a law firm, but in fact, I am not. That's just my last name. So in any case, I am the founder of Writing Brave, which is a book coaching and hybrid publishing company. And I'm also an author. So my debut novel Catchlight came out a couple of years ago and it won or it won the Fairfield Book Prize, which I'm really proud of. And it was also named a best indie book of the year by Kirkus Reviews. So, yeah, really, I'm really proud of it. It took me a long time to write that book and I'm really I'm still really proud of it. So I'm working on my second novel right now.
SPEAKER_01
00:07:56
I love hearing an indie author say that it took them a while to write a book. I just really like that because it takes me a long time to write a book. I like all you people like putting out 50 books a year. I can't I can't keep up with this. Likewise. So let's talk first about the book because you have a coveted Kirkus Review that's not just like, oh, yeah, great. You know, I mean, this is like best indie book of the year is pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_00
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So it's on the list.
SPEAKER_00
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The best. There was like 100 indie books of the year. But it was on the list.
SPEAKER_01
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How many compared to how many that got out?
SPEAKER_00
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That's
SPEAKER_01
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true. There's thousands. So so tell us about that journey. Like, when did you start writing? You know, what sort of goes into fulfilling that dream of of publishing Catchlight?
SPEAKER_00
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Yeah, yeah, I love this question. So it was it was sort of a lifelong dream of mine to publish a book. Like, I remember being four years old and being like, people write books for living. Like, I want to be able to do that. Right. So I first had the idea for this novel in 2007. So I had recently graduated from college. And like many liberal arts majors, I was working at Starbucks and living at home and being like, oh, God, what's next?
SPEAKER_00
00:09:14
Like, what's next for me? And it's really interesting because at the time I felt very sort of judgmental about those circumstances of my life. And looking back, I just see really clearly that if I had gotten some like big fancy office job, I probably never would have started that book. Right. So it's just really interesting how how things turn out. Right. So I got the idea for this book, which is about a family of four grown siblings who kind of can't stand each other. And their mother is diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. And they're basically like, what now? Right. So the book is sort of about how they figure out how they're going to take care of their mother and also then how they're going to have relationships with each other. Right. And so I have this idea and I started writing and I wrote for like a couple of years and then I had a draft and I was like, all right, I did this draft.
SPEAKER_00
00:10:03
And it is really bad. And like, I knew that it was a pretty bad draft, but I didn't know how to make it better. So I ended up going to get an MFA degree. So a master of fine arts in creative writing. And it's funny because I was just listening to your interview with Gabby Pereira. And I was basically like, I don't necessarily recommend getting an MFA for most people. However, that was the path that I took. And I was able to during that program really take the draft that I had. And I started it over from scratch, like two times. And then and I ended up with a book that I am like so proud of it. Like, I'm like, wow, that was like everything that I had when I did this book. Right. So in total, it took me about seven years from the time that I first had the idea to the time when I had that finished draft that I was really proud of. Seven years. And then, though, it took me another six years to get it published. So it was definitely a journey, but I was relentless.
SPEAKER_01
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Yes. Yes. But you were young and that's a big idea for a book. Yeah. So I commend you for even starting it because I can see like a young 20 something year old being like, fabulous idea. Don't even know how to start. Like, how do I even start?
SPEAKER_01
00:11:19
Even to get to a bad draft. That's pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_00
00:11:23
Yeah. Thank you. I think I sort of came to this idea. So I had watched my grandmother go through Alzheimer's. And then at the time that I first had the idea, I was reading this book about an older narrator who was like in their 80s. And they were sort of they had recently retired and they were sort of on purpose making peace with their memories. And I remember asking myself, like, but what happens if you get to the end of your life and you don't get to do that? Right.
SPEAKER_00
00:11:51
You don't get to kind of consciously reflect on your life and sort of look back on things. So that was sort of where the seed of the idea first came from. And yeah, I sort of went with it. I was like, I don't know if I can do this justice, but I'm going to at least give it a try. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
00:12:07
And what I love is that you worked on it and you're proud of it because I know a lot of like writing is one of those things that it's technically free, right? Like, I mean, you got to buy the paper or like a word software, but you you can just pound away at a keyboard or write away, you know, onto your paper all you want in life. But like, it is difficult to get to the end of the story and then know if it's good, bad, ugly. And like half the time, the publishing industry won't really tell you just because they send a rejection doesn't mean that it's the book, you know? So like, so you said that you knew it was bad. Like, how did you but it's still worth working on. So like, how did you know that, like, you knew you could just make this into the story that that was in your head that you could do it justice?
SPEAKER_00
00:12:58
Yeah, that's a great question. I think so I read a lot, like I just read all the time. And so I have this sort of standard in my mind of like, what a good or just enjoyable or entertaining novel, right? We could always debate about like, what makes great writing, blah, blah, blah. But I'm always like, what makes it interesting? What makes me want to keep reading? And I would read my own book, it'd be like, like, it's not quite there.
SPEAKER_00
00:13:23
Right? Like, and looking back, I can see now, like, you know, I hadn't plotted intentionally in any way, there were a lot of like, disconnected scenes, there weren't there wasn't a lot of like, I had to raise the stakes, right? And so so those were all things like, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. But I was like, I just know that it's not quite there. But I was really like, I've already invested these like, maybe two, three years of like, my free time, my weekends, like working on this. And I wanted to be I wanted to become the writer who could kind of do justice to the idea that was in my head. And that was why like, and for me, this was a very intuitive decision. Like, one day, I was like, I think I want to look into MFA programs. And then I saw an advertisement for one, and I ended up I applied there and only there. And that's where I went, right?
SPEAKER_00
00:14:07
Like, I didn't do car here. Like, I have an idea. Exactly. And it was just, it was just sort of this intuitive decision of this is the path that I need to take to get to become who I want to become. And so and that's and it was literally, I remember I applied in like November, for their summer cohort, which started in July. And the the director of the program emailed me and he was like, we have a space open for December, like, do you want to come and it was basically like four weeks away, do you want to come for a residency in four weeks? And I was like, okay, like, right. So it happened really quickly. No. Yeah, I was like, all right, let's do it. And he was like, you know, I was really very taken by the writing sample you submitted. And I was like, oh, well, right. Okay. Okay, now I'll say yeah. Yeah. And looking back, I'm like, but did he just want my money? And like, maybe he did. However, that was also sort of just that was like,
SPEAKER_01
00:14:58
right. But I mean, I think there are people who have been in the writing industry, like he must, he saw something, you know, because you're now book coaching and editing and hybrid.
SPEAKER_01
00:15:11
Like, so you've seen a lot of manuscripts, and you read a lot. So we'll get into that. But like, you know, when someone's able to, they just need to learn how and this was what like 2010 11? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, there weren't all that there was not the internet that is today. Right? Like, there's not that's because I remember around that time, I had just given birth to the second one. And I was like, I would love to go to like a program.
SPEAKER_01
00:15:40
And everything was in the States because then I was not in the States. But you know, there was not these internet groups like Gabriella Pereira's group, you know, the DIY MFA, like that just wasn't a thing. So I can understand why you'd be like, if I need help, if I need to learn this, I'm going to go get my MFA and get it from the people who studied this and are immersed in it. Right? They can
SPEAKER_00
00:16:02
help you. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And then it was interesting because right, so the same writing sample I had submitted, which was my first chapter at the time, I submitted, you know, to get entry into the program, then I submitted for my first workshop. And I still remember, like, everyone just tore it apart. And I was like, Oh, gosh. And right, like, so I give feedback very differently than some of the workshop models that I've experienced. And also, right, I really got a lot of feedback that was like, Oh, this is what's not working.
SPEAKER_00
00:16:34
And this is what I can do to make it work. Right. And so that was sort of the beginning of being able to internalize those lessons and then be able to edit my own work. Right. I feel like that was the biggest skill that came out of my MFA is I can, I have a pretty good eye now for my own work is like, I can read it and be like, Oh, this is not working. And I still get feedback. I mean, I still work with other folks. But I feel like I really developed that skill of being able to edit my own stuff, which has served me really well.
SPEAKER_01
00:17:02
Of course. And it is scary. Like, everyone has that story. I feel like if you've ever stepped out and asked for feedback, everyone has a story. It's like, and it's really harsh and it's hard to get through.
SPEAKER_01
00:17:16
And if you had to sit through that in person, that must have been rough.
SPEAKER_00
00:17:19
Yep.
SPEAKER_01
00:17:21
Oh, gosh. But you kept going because you're in this process. Like, it's like, it's difficult because the story is so dear to you. And like you said, you had spent, we all spend so much time on the, on the book, right.
SPEAKER_00
00:17:35
And
SPEAKER_01
00:17:36
you're looking for the feedback, but sometimes it's not given in the graph.
SPEAKER_00
00:17:41
Yeah. And so this is the reason why in my own business, I don't use a workshop model and I'm not saying that they don't work.
SPEAKER_00
00:17:48
I know that people use them and they're very common sort of at the university level and master's level. But I just think for me as a very sort of sensitive person, getting feedback from one person is more impactful than getting feedback from like seven people, especially, right? Like you said, when you're in a room and you're just like, I feel like everyone's looking at me. Oh my gosh. Right. So it's just really difficult emotionally. And so, and so I've sort of taken that of like, also, where did I find that my own writing most improved? It was actually like, when I was working during the MFA program, one-on-one with a professor during the semester, I feel like that was actually even more impactful than the workshops were. And so that's why I use that sort of one-on-one feedback in my business instead of a workshop model. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
00:18:38
Yeah. I mean, yes, I think this all goes into different personalities and everything, but there's good and bad to workshop for sure.
SPEAKER_01
00:18:47
It definitely helps you get a thicker skin, which is sometimes good, but man, it can rip your heart up. So you didn't give up. Obviously you kept going and you're getting value from this. And so by the end of the MFA, did you have the book done?
SPEAKER_00
00:19:04
So I had probably 70% of it done. And I knew exactly where that last 30% was going. So I finished the last maybe 30% like that. So I graduated in January and then I finished it maybe by April. And then, oh, and then I got feedback on the whole book from one of my professors that I had worked with. And I made a couple last weeks and then it was pretty much done. And then I proceeded to query 125 agents and all of them said no. And I was like, this is really intense. So yeah, this is kind of goes to the relentless portion is like, I was just like, I'm just going to keep going. But in the end, so I put it away for a little while and then maybe a year or two after that, I entered it for a contest and then, and part of the prize was a book deal. And it's really interesting, right? And it kind of goes to the whole idea that, you know, writing is so subjective, because I had entered it for the same contest, like two years previously, didn't even make it to the finalist round. And then I entered the same exact book with like, I didn't change anything at all.
SPEAKER_00
00:20:17
And then it won the whole thing. So it really just depends on who's reading it and sort of, you know, I don't know the right timing.
SPEAKER_01
00:20:25
Nicole Yeah, that's really important to understand. And I think it's hard to understand sometimes, especially when you're in the middle of getting 125 rejections. Bekkah
SPEAKER_00
00:20:35
And you don't know, right? If the story is going to have a happy ending or not, right? That whole six years that I was looking for a book deal, I did not know if it was going to happen or not. I really was like, I don't know. Maybe this will not be the book that gets a book deal. Like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01
00:20:50
Nicole Oh, my goodness.
SPEAKER_00
00:20:51
But good
SPEAKER_01
00:20:51
for you for keeping for going. So is that the Fairfield book prize? Was that the contest? Or was?
SPEAKER_00
00:20:57
Bekkah Yep. So that was the contest. And it's actually so it's open to folks who have done an MFA through Fairfield University. And so in one sense, it's a smaller pool of people. But on the other sense, you know that everyone's work is really good. You know, if there are like colleagues and peers, they've already
SPEAKER_01
00:21:13
gone through like a vetting process.
SPEAKER_01
00:21:16
So you better like really have it ready. So then did you get a book deal out of that? Was it was it published hybrid or fully self or traditional? Bekkah
SPEAKER_00
00:21:27
No, it was they have a partnership with a small independent traditional press called Woodhawk Press. And so they Yep, they ended up publishing it. Nicole Yay.
SPEAKER_01
00:21:37
And how how has was that 2015 2016? Bekkah
SPEAKER_00
00:21:40
No, 2020 is when it officially came out. Nicole Oh,
SPEAKER_01
00:21:42
man.
SPEAKER_00
00:21:44
I can't add. Bekkah So yeah, we so I graduated in 2013. And then it took it took like six years and then I got the deal in 2019. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
00:21:55
Nicole Wow, good for you. I'm glad I like this story because
SPEAKER_00
00:22:00
Bekkah It can happen for anyone. Nicole
SPEAKER_01
00:22:01
It can happen. It's just like, I come across a lot of people just in like day to day life. I live in DC is a very like government workers, and they're all contractors. And then somebody will be like, I'm an author. You know, I'm very like, not the same as everyone else. And a lot of people will say I've started a book or I've written a book. And for whatever reasons, usually through rejection or through feedback, they've given up. And, and I don't like that. Like there is a reader for almost every book. Like, believe me, I have edited quite a few different books. That might not be for me, but there are readers for them. And so it kind of hurts me when I'm like, Oh, you got to keep going. You got to keep trying, you know, because in this case now in 2023, it seems completely worth it. Right?
SPEAKER_00
00:22:50
Bekkah Yep, totally. Yes. But during that time, I was really like, again, I don't know. I don't know if this is going to happen for me.
SPEAKER_00
00:22:56
Maybe it won't. But I'm really, I'm just relentless. Nicole Good.
SPEAKER_01
00:23:01
Good. So after that, so you're, you're trying to, you know, you're going back and forth and sending out all these queries. And that's a whole nother thing for agents. What did you do after your MFA? Did you go back to Starbucks? Or did you start? Bekkah So,
SPEAKER_00
00:23:16
so actually during when I was getting my MFA, I was working for a nonprofit at the time in New York City. And, you know, so I was commuting on the train. So I used to hand write on the train. I was working on my book because my laptop at the time weighed like 15 pounds. Nicole Yes, I remember.
SPEAKER_01
00:23:34
That's so true. I forgot about that. Bekkah Yes, yes. This is the real thing.
SPEAKER_00
00:23:37
Nicole
SPEAKER_01
00:23:37
You were so heavy. And it's not like there was internet.
SPEAKER_01
00:23:40
It's so cumbersome. Yeah. Bekkah
SPEAKER_00
00:23:42
I know. Yeah. So it's wild. So, and I worked at that nonprofit for a long time. And then I stepped out and started my own business. So when the book came out, I had already started my own business and was kind of building Writing Brave.
SPEAKER_01
00:23:54
Nicole And that, okay, so that's Writing Brave that you started. So what made you start wanting to help writers? Like you're in the midst of just living your life and trying to get your book published. What made you want to be like, I now want to help other writers go through the same pain?
SPEAKER_00
00:24:10
Bekkah Yeah. So I think part of it was I really wanted to have my own business. That was actually the start of it is I was having some health problems and I needed kind of a more flexible schedule. And my husband moves around a little bit for his work. And I was really like, I do not want to have a job where I will have to get a different job every time we move. I want to have something that can be really location independent. And so I actually started off, I first was copywriting. So I was writing websites and marketing emails, things like that for clients. And then I was working with a business coach and my book was had just, you know, gotten the deal and I was getting ready. I was, you know, finishing edits and everything and preparing for its release. And my business coach at the time was just like, what are you doing? Like you're over here doing copywriting for these, you know, businesses. But she was like, you have this and you have an MFA, you have like this and you have a book coming out, right? Like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00
00:25:02
Why are you not helping writers? And I was like, that would be a lot more fun. A lot more fun than writing another website. I just were in so many websites by that point. And so it took me a little while to transition, but I just started like talking to people about writing. And the first, the very first thing I did was I would do something called the writing circle on Monday mornings and we would just get on zoom and write together. This was pre pandemic. So before that became all the rage. And that was sort of the beginning. And I just sort of started building a client base from there.
SPEAKER_01
00:25:34
Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. I mean, there's something weird about writing again, you know, like, yes, I want to help writers. And like, if you, if you think about that abstractly in like 2016, you'd be like, I don't know how. Like, I mean, again, the world has changed a lot, right? Like you were on zoom before the pandemic.
SPEAKER_01
00:25:53
I was too, but it was, so it was interesting to me in 2020 when some people were like, what's zoom? Oh my goodness. You know, but that's kind of how the world is. And sometimes like many people come to writing through many different ways. So it's like, you have to find them like, and do you want to help? So like, so how did you find these, these people who wanted to come together and wanted to write? And then how did you find your, your niche who you help?
SPEAKER_00
00:26:22
Yeah, it's taken some time. And I think it's sort of a little bit of trial and error and just figuring out like, what are the products that I like working on? Who, who are the types of people that I like to work with? And, but I really just started posting on Facebook, I would be like, I'm doing this thing called the writing circle and you can come and sign up. And I had, you know, a little, a really basic signup page. And so then I had this little email list of like 75 people, right? So, and it was, that was sort of how it started. And it's really interesting because just as I've been meeting more people in our industry, I see a lot of folks who sort of niche down based on, you know, I work with fiction writers or sometimes even more, like I work with fantasy writers, right? So really specific. And I don't do that, but I work with a type of person and the type of person that I work with who's generally really drawn to my work is sort of very sensitive, very intuitive, very creative, and maybe is feeling shut down for different reasons, right? Maybe because you've had an experience like the one I had in that first workshop where like people just start trashing your work or right, I kind of walk people through this process that I call of healing creative wounds of like, all of us have these creative wounds where we made something and it wasn't received the way that we had hoped. And so people who are drawn to my work tend to be like, oh yes, tell me more about that. And so that becomes sort of an entry point. And I think another, another thing that I found is, I know we both spoke on Daniel David Wallace's summit and I did a talk about plotting as an intuitive writer. And so, you know, other folks call it being a pantser where you write by the seat of your pants. I don't love that, that name, but a lot of people know what that is, but that's totally how I write is I sit down and I have no idea like what's going to come out and it's not very efficient, but it's a really enjoyable process. And so I just talked a little bit and it was a very personal talk and I got a lot of feedback from people being like, this is me, like you are taught, like we think the same, right? And so I was like, oh, these are my people, right? So I feel like I'm always kind of crystallizing who it is I'm talking to, but those folks who identify as an intuitive writer, when I use that phrase, I'm like, oh yes, we're right, we're, we can jam. Yes.
SPEAKER_01
00:28:37
And I think every time an industry like grows and I feel like we're going to be like, I think every time an industry like grows and I feel like our industry has changed so much that it's almost back in the teenage years again, you know, like the Kindle has changed everything, self publishing has changed everything, the internet. And so I've started to see in the last few years, just a lot of, there's a lot of teaching out there, but it's definitely towards a certain type of personality. And I talk about personality a lot because you can't change your personality in the way that can cram into somebody's way of teaching if it's completely contradictory to who you are. Like you're just not going to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_01
00:29:25
Right. And so I think you're very, not opposite, but you're very in a specific spot that isn't being served. Like that group of people are not necessarily being served because you can be writing any kind of genre and yet be an intuitive writer and not really be finding the resources that you need.
SPEAKER_00
00:29:46
Thank you so much for saying that. And I have, it's interesting because I think there is a lot of shame among us intuitive writers that we can't plan a book in the way that other people can, or we can't kind of follow like a formula or a structure map or whatever it is. Like you were saying, like what some folks teach, which I'm always like, if I like Pete, there is so much good teaching out there. And I'm like, if I could follow that, I would, but like whenever I try to, it just like, it jams for me. It just like, I just get stuck. So I've had to find these other ways in to my story. And sometimes I feel a bit like as a teacher, like, oh my gosh, but my work is not as, it's not as specific or like, or easy to understand maybe as some things that other people teach. And also whenever I talk about it, people are like, yes, we want more about this. And I'm like, oh, okay. Right. So I'm not the only one, right? It does feel a little bit like I come at it from an angle that is a little bit different, but yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
00:30:47
And I think we need more people to teach in different ways because I was at a workshop yesterday in which it was a great workshop, absolutely wonderful. And because I would love to see if I could write a little faster, like I could come to my story and I, and they were talking about like, ask, you know, ask yourself where to find where your character ends, where they think they could never be in the beginning of the story. And I thought that's a great question. I can answer it for any story I have finished. Yeah, totally. Ask me about the one that I'm about to start. And I'm like, hmm.
SPEAKER_00
00:31:31
Yeah, no, my mind just goes blank. It's like white noise in there. And I'm like, uh, or, or I come up with this great idea and then I start writing it and it just goes, it takes like a hard left and it goes. Nevermind. 100%.
SPEAKER_00
00:31:46
100%. So then how funny, so the book that I'm writing now, I got two years into the process of it when I realized I had this huge epiphany one day looking at a deck of Oracle cards. I had this huge epiphany of where all my characters were trying to go. And I was like, oh my gosh, everyone's journey suddenly makes sense. And it's like a huge, it's like the main part of the story, but it took me two years to get there. And if I had tried to come up with that at the beginning, it just would not have been like interesting. Like I would never have come to that answer. Right. So
SPEAKER_01
00:32:22
I'm so glad that you are on the show. One of those other people that's like, yes, exactly. And it's really difficult, I find sometimes to, to talk about that sort of issue in the, in the writings field, because it is so much easier to teach the way that, well, I come up with it before I start writing and this is what happens. And, and you know, that might come along with certain genres, like maybe cozy mystery or thriller. And, but then there are other genres. Like I do a lot of contemporary family dramas, family dramas, whatever Amazon niches down to more and more, right? Like contemporary fiction, we used to just call it fiction. And like you said, you, you throughout your manuscript twice, like I have done that before. And I was speaking on one summit and everyone went, and I thought, well, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01
00:33:19
There's a whole group of writers who aren't willing to do that. Right. So, but if you get an epiphany half the time, you have to throw out, yes.
SPEAKER_00
00:33:29
And that happens to me, right. I remember being so gratified because the last semester of my MFA, I was working with a professor who had, I had had a workshop with her like previously. And I sat her down and I was like, okay, there's a lot of change. I'm making really big changes. Like I'm going back to page one and I'm, you know, I'm changing the setting, which made a huge difference in that book because I had an epiphany. And she just said to me, I always like to hear about big changes happening in a novel because it means you're listening to the book. And I was like, oh, that feels so good. Like in my body, like, yes, I'm listening to the book. So, but yes, I've had people say the same thing. Like I'll just be completely horrified because I start over the new book I've started over probably at least twice as well. And it's not that like I throw every single thing out, but I just know where it's going, but I can't go back and change it.
SPEAKER_00
00:34:18
I have to like start with a fresh piece of paper. I just do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
00:34:23
And, and, and I would encourage anyone who like, it's not as hard as you think it is. Like it might like, you don't, it's, it's a computer, right? Like everything can be backed up to the cloud. Of course I have like every, every version of every book, but it's also not wasted time. And I, and I'm like really high on the achievers. So I've had to like have this conversation with myself, but I've finally come to to believe that it is true. I really believe that it's true. Like I know my characters so well that I am able to write in such a way that the blips of backstory makes sense, which without having to do loads and loads of the backs, like I can delete it from the page so that the right reader is not overwhelmed, but they know enough. Right. And so like, it's not wasted time ever. Yes. You just know your characters to a level that, that resonates with the reader in a way that they won't even know how, you know, like, but I don't, I don't see that as wasted time.
SPEAKER_00
00:35:30
Yes. I agree with you so much. And I say this, I actually use that exact phrase, like nothing is wasted. There's no wasted time. And I have a client who, when she first came to me, she had a novel and it was literally like 1200 pages, the first draft that she sent me. And I was like, okay, well, she wants a traditional book deal.
SPEAKER_00
00:35:48
And I was like, that's not going to work. Right. So, and then we, and we've been working on kind of whittling it down. And the way that I explained it to her is like, I said, it's almost like you've written your characters autobiography and now you need to write, you know, their memoir, like, or their novel. I mean, it's fiction, but I really said, like, you know, the way that I put it to her was almost that what she knows about her story is like this iceberg, right? And it's like the iceberg, like 90% of it's under the surface, right? And the reader doesn't see it on the page, but it's like, they can feel, like you were saying, they can feel, you know, your felt sense of who these people are. And it just makes them come even more alive. I really do that too.
SPEAKER_01
00:36:25
Yes. Yes. I think the more that you know your characters, the more, the less you have to give away every single time. And like, you can carry that mystery almost about them until it's the right moment. And you can see this, what's interesting is like knowing your characters can make up for like any plot hole that might get through in
SPEAKER_00
00:36:48
your story. You
SPEAKER_01
00:36:49
know, like, because let's face it, like no book is completely perfect. Like someone's going to be able to point out that like something is over, right? But like even that book that we might think is not greatly written, the reason that it might be resonating and trending somewhere is because of the characters, right? Like people have identified with them. And isn't that what we want? We want our readers to identify with them.
SPEAKER_00
00:37:16
Totally.
SPEAKER_01
00:37:17
So then how you say you have clients and you have this intuitive writing and how do you work with people on this intuitive product? Because it feels, sometimes it can feel like, well, yeah, I have to intuit. So like, how can you help them along in this journey if there aren't templates?
SPEAKER_00
00:37:38
That's a great question. So actually the main way that I work with folks is through a six month small group class called the Secrets of Storytelling Mastermind. And when this is coming out, it will already have started for the year. So I enroll it once a year in November and then it starts in January, right? So this class will already be in motion. And so, but the way that I do it is sort of, you know, there's eight to 12 people. It's a really small group and I do a weekly class where we're working on, I do a lot of, you know, kind of guided meditation to help people listen to their book and develop really, I call it a relationship with the spirit of your book and that you almost come to be able to ask your book like what happens next?
SPEAKER_00
00:38:24
Like what should I work on next? Right? And sort of being able to move through like the different parts of the process, including when you get like stuck and you're like, this is terrible and I don't know what's supposed to happen next and this is never going to work. Right? And kind of how do you just emotionally carry yourself through those really hard moments? That'll happen like 50 times. Exactly. And people often take that, those moments, as a sign that they're working on the wrong idea or their book is never going to work. Right? And it's, that's not what it is. It's just part of, it's literally just part of the process and every writer has those moments. Right? So just like, you know, building the skills, keep, keep moving through. And the course also includes one-on-one feedback. So folks submit work every month to one of my editors and then they get an editorial letter and a one-on-one coaching session. So I really found that that like the weekly group teaching, like having a small group to cheer each other on and then also having that one-on-one feedback, like all of that work working together really helps people move the needle towards what they want to be working on.
SPEAKER_00
00:39:27
Right? So towards the book that they're, that they're doing. So that said, if you're listening to this, like, you know, when it comes out in February, you can go to my website, which is we are writing brave.com and jump on my email list. And I do a lot of other things during the year. So I do free workshops. I'm doing a workshop in May for, with the London writer's salon and that's on dissolving writer's block. And I'm talking a lot about healing creative wounds, which I mentioned earlier. And then I also in April run something called the writing brave summit, which is a free, it'll probably be four days this year, four day events and have lots of speakers and classes and everything like that.
SPEAKER_01
00:40:09
And do the speakers sort of, are they, are they intuitive writers as well? Or do you?
SPEAKER_00
00:40:17
A lot of them are. I do a mix. I sort of have some folks who are, who are doing like, this is how to plan, right?
SPEAKER_00
00:40:23
I kind of do a mix. And then I have a lot of people though, talking about intuitive writing and how to, how to enter your book in different ways and, and sort of all that goodness.
SPEAKER_01
00:40:32
Yeah. Yeah. So when people sign up for your masterclass, it sounds really amazing because you and I have both like worked on books all by ourselves and there was no internet and there was no groups as far as I could tell. And the library had like people who were way older than me. It's like, you know, in your twenties, I at least was like, Oh, I have very intimidated by these people and I cannot do this. So coming together and like getting encouragement every week and, and being able to submit every month, do you really find that that, that pushes everyone to, to keep writing and to get their, their book done?
SPEAKER_00
00:41:15
Yeah, I find it really pushes people to keep going and to be like, we talk a lot about having sort of a consistent writing practice, whatever that looks like. And right. Like I said, we do a lot of that emotional work of like, when you hit a set point, or I do get a lot of people who are writing nonfiction, people hit points where they're writing about things that are really painful or difficult to think about. And so how do you kind of take care of yourself kind of through that process? So I really find that people move forward when they have, again, like you were saying, that group, the group aspect, and then the one-on-one feedback aspect.
SPEAKER_01
00:41:50
Yeah. So they're still working very much at their own pace and doing their own. So there's no like, you will finish in six months.
SPEAKER_00
00:41:58
No. And it's interesting because I have thought a lot about the promise of the mastermind and whether I quote unquote should be like, you're going to finish your book in six months. And what I have found is that just does not work for the type of people that come to me. And so my goal though is to kind of build skills for people that you can have, like as you go forward. And another concept that I teach a lot about is this idea of stepping into your author identity, that you can kind of decide that you're an author before you have a published book. So it's very much like Steven Pressfield idea of turning pro. It's sort of, which has nothing to do with being paid for your writing, but it has to do with this mindset of moving, right? He talks about moving from being an amateur to sort of being a pro. And that just means that you show up for your writing every day and you show up or not every day, but you show up for it regularly, right? In some form. And you keep going even when you're feeling a lot of resistance, right? But I really focus on helping people kind of develop that author identity. And so even when, I would say most people do not finish in the six months and some people finish shortly thereafter and some people, two years later are still working on their book and circling back with me though, like I finished a draft, can I send it, can we work together? Can you send it to me?
SPEAKER_00
00:43:15
Can they send it to me? So it's really fun to get those emails.
SPEAKER_01
00:43:19
Yeah, of course. So do you also
SPEAKER_00
00:43:21
take
SPEAKER_01
00:43:24
full manuscripts and you edit
SPEAKER_00
00:43:26
them or what? Yeah. So I do developmental editing on full manuscripts, which I call first draft feedback, but it's really just development. Whatever draft it is.
SPEAKER_01
00:43:35
I don't know why people call it first or second. I don't even know.
SPEAKER_01
00:43:39
Tenth
SPEAKER_00
00:43:39
draft, exactly. Exactly. So those are the sort of the two main ways as I work with people who have a finished manuscript or right through the mastermind. The mastermind works really well if you're either just starting out or if you've got, you've written some amount and you're kind of like stuck and need some juice to keep going.
SPEAKER_01
00:43:59
Yeah, of course, of course. So why do you think that the author mindset and the author identity is so important to work on before you're published?
SPEAKER_00
00:44:09
Yeah, this is a great question. So the story that I always tell is I was part of this author panel some point during the pandemic. So maybe like, I feel like it was early 2021 maybe, and it was supposed to be in person and then whatever, there was another wave. And so whatever, we were doing this on Zoom and someone asked this question of like, you know, how do you deal with imposter syndrome? And it was really interesting because I think there were maybe six authors on the panel and most of them were, I would say, more successful than I am, like have sold more books, have won awards, like, you know, like pretty well known people. And person after person after person just started saying like, I actually still feel like a fraud and I feel like I'm not a real writer. And when I'm working on my next book, I always feel like the jig is up and they're going to find out and write like all this stuff. And I was just like, this is fascinating. And so the moderator of the panel, who's someone who's pretty big in the book industry, was like, oh, this is so interesting. And like, you know, this person is kind of a big, like has a big network. And they were like, maybe we could put together some sort of, you know, because we were talking specifically about essays, personal essays. And so this person was like, maybe we could do something through her company that's like, you know, a certification. So you could, so, and that would help with your imposter syndrome. Like if you could have like, I've been certified by such and such. And I sort of got up on my soapbox a little and I was like, look, if you don't feel like a real writer after having like all these successful books published, then like having a little certification sticker on your website is not going to help.
SPEAKER_00
00:45:54
And, and I said, like, it's really an inside job. Like you can kind of decide for yourself, like I'm going to become the author that I really want to be. And you can sort of take all those steps to do that internal, like emotional and mental work, or, you know, you can not. And, and, and what I, what I found through that experience was just that people having the external validation, it didn't help them internally actually, like at all. Right. And so, and I think that that's one reason that I was able to keep going through all of that rejection is right. Part of what I did during the MFA was like, I really decided I'm going to build my life the way a writer would. Right. And so part of it was because of the degree, but part of it was really just the practice of like, I'm going to become a writer and I'm going to use this process to become a writer. I have a lot of peers who are in the MFA with me who have never written again. Right.
SPEAKER_00
00:46:46
Like, so it's not just because you go through and get a degree, like it's not the external validation. It's, it's that internal kind of decision to kind of have that relationship with your writing and to show up for it, you know, on some regular basis. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
00:46:59
That's really fascinating because it's, there's so much that goes into this field, right. But it's fascinating to hear that everyone feels slightly like a fraud. And unfortunately that sounds like, like, like it almost might become a jewel in our crown to think like I'm, yeah, we all think that, you know, we all have imposter syndrome when really what you're saying is like, no, we can get through it and we, we can call ourselves writers and why, why would we not? And I really, I like that because I, I was listening, my kids are, I have girls and so there's a lot of Taylor Swift in my car and Harry Styles. I
SPEAKER_00
00:47:44
love them,
SPEAKER_01
00:47:45
but I was thinking like, this is interesting how there, if you sing a song, you're a singer. Like that's, that's what you do. And how many people do you know who do music on the side?
SPEAKER_01
00:48:00
They do full-time jobs, but they love singing and they call themselves singers. Yep. And it's not as fraught maybe.
SPEAKER_00
00:48:07
Yes.
SPEAKER_01
00:48:08
And yet we can't say we're writers. I'm a writer. I'm an author. You know, I'm working on a book. And I wonder if it's always been like that or new. I don't know, but I do like that you're speaking contrary to what is sort of becoming that like norm of like, yes, imposter syndrome. Like you said, we, we have these ups and downs always because in the end, like, it's great if you can join the writing brave, the, I guess, secrets of storytelling mastermind, like at least you're getting feedback. You're getting surrounded by people, but in the end, you still have to keep writing, right?
SPEAKER_00
00:48:45
And you
SPEAKER_01
00:48:46
will, of course your brain is, I mean, our brains are awesome and terrible at the same time. Like we are our own worst enemies. Like this is no good, especially if you read a great book, you'll come back to your own and be like, Oh, throw it all out. This will happen to you several times forever, but it doesn't mean you're not a writer.
SPEAKER_00
00:49:06
Yeah, it doesn't. And I think there's also a way of like, like I read books that are amazing and I'm always kind of like, sometimes there is that moment of like absolute despair, like what is even the point of writing? It's like, you know, that drama queen in my brain is like, what is even the point of going on? Right. But I really try after I let, I let that drama queen part of me kind of rage a bit, but I really try to then use it as fuel like, okay, what did I like about this book? What do I admire about what this author is doing?
SPEAKER_00
00:49:35
How can I emulate that? How can I sort of always be pushing my edge of like what I'm actually capable of? And that's how we improve. It's like, that's literally like how people learn. So I'm always practicing that.
SPEAKER_01
00:49:48
Yes. And I love telling people like, if you don't, if you don't get one book out and then the next one, you can never see how much you've improved. And like, for some reason, despite however many times we've told people like first draft, nothing, it's like 50 drafts, right? If not a hundred, if like, or like first draft of this one, I threw out the other two, you know, like, who knows? Like, it's never really that it's like the finished product that you read has hours of heartbreak and work and revisions put into it. It's always a work of love, no matter what it is, whether it resonates with you or not, right? It's something that's like, you're a writer if you care about writing the story, you know, like if if you care, even if you get one book out, 150 books out, I don't know, I'm with you. I want people to say like loud and proud. I'm a writer because I wrote a poem in fifth grade. Own it.
SPEAKER_01
00:50:52
Own it. So then what does Writing Brave? Why did you come up with that title for your company?
SPEAKER_00
00:51:00
Yeah. So this goes back to a story where I got to be, I got to put an essay in an anthology a few years ago, which felt like I was like, oh my gosh, it's happening for me, right? Someone invited me to be part of an anthology. It was really exciting. And I spent hours and hours. I mean, I couldn't even tell you how many hours I spent on this like 1200 word essay. And I mean, just like weeks of time. And I really sort of dug deep and I said really vulnerable things, right? So the essay is called The World I Built for You. And it's about body image, like after I gave birth to my daughter. And I'm writing this letter to my daughter who is now four years old. And I was just telling her like all the things that people, people had lots of opinions when I was pregnant about how my body looked when I was carrying her. And I just wrote about how that felt. And like, it was really deep and vulnerable. And like, I really sort of let it all hang out, not in like an oversharing way, but in like a really thoughtful way, I thought, or I hoped. And when I ended up reading the finished collection, I was really struck by the fact that like, a lot of the essays were, I mean, everything was very well written. And a lot of them were very clever and like funny. But I was like, Oh, wow, not everyone.
SPEAKER_00
00:52:19
In fact, I would say most people did not sort of go to the same level of vulnerability that I did. And I really, at first I was kind of like, Oh my gosh, did I, did I go too far? Did I go, did I say too many true things right in one place? And there was sort of some like embarrassment about it. And I really thought about it. And I was like, you know what, like, if I'm gonna write something and put it out there, I want it to be the bravest thing that I can say. And so that's sort of where the, you know, the tagline writing brave first came from. And I really sort of come back to that moment of like, Oh, wow, I want to sort of write all those moments when I write things that I almost want to like vomit because they're so personal. And again, I don't overshare, and I'm always very careful about what I do share. But I want to like always be stretching that vulnerable edge. And I think that's what really people readers connect to. Yes, I want to be a model of that for for the writers that I work with.
SPEAKER_01
00:53:14
I think you're right. And I was talking to somebody. You
SPEAKER_00
00:53:23
talk to a
SPEAKER_01
00:53:23
lot of people. I talk to a lot of people. I've talked to, let's say like, a lot of these interviews, I'm I'm recording before Christmas, and they're coming out in 2024. Like a lot of, mostly women that I've spoken to are coming back to this idea of bravery and courage in writing in that way. Like, there are there are many different ways to write, and I don't want to discredit any of them. But I've really come to to believe that the braver you are in your own personal convictions, whether it's a nonfiction essay, or whether it's your fiction, if you're willing to put your passions into the story, that is going to resonate more with a reader than anything else that you could do. Like sitting on the fence, you could write a story, but I'm not sure that it will resonate and stick with the reader the way that you might hope as the author. Yeah, I totally agree. So I love this idea of writing brave and like putting it there on your website, like this is what we're going to do. And we're going to encourage each other to do this. And that means different things for different people, right? Whatever that bravery is.
SPEAKER_00
00:54:39
Yes, definitely. And I was saying, I just posted something on Facebook, like last week, where I was like, you know, it became clear to me that I had to do to send an email to somebody. And I was just like, I was literally like, I feel like I'm going to throw up.
SPEAKER_00
00:54:52
I'm so nervous about setting this email. And then I was just like, everything that I've done in my business, in my life, in my writing, that has been like a great result has started with me taking an action that made me want to throw up because I was so nervous about doing it. Right. So I was kind of like, you know, I'm just going to, I'm just, I'm going to do it. And I did do it. And it was fine. But it was just one of those things where I was like, okay, this is part of living that brave life. I'm like doing those things that make you want to cry.
SPEAKER_01
00:55:21
It's true.
SPEAKER_00
00:55:23
It's true. It's so true.
SPEAKER_01
00:55:24
And I think it's important for us to speak on that, especially as moms and especially
SPEAKER_00
00:55:28
as
SPEAKER_01
00:55:29
moms of girls, like maybe we're more intuitive. I don't know. I'm not a man. So I don't, I don't know. I'll only speak for myself, man, anxiety, nerves, bravery. Like it's all things that you just have to keep going forward and it will come back.
SPEAKER_00
00:55:49
Yeah. You have to keep being brave. You don't get to stop. You don't sort of reach this magical point. I don't think where everything just is easy. Unfortunately,
SPEAKER_01
00:56:00
like
SPEAKER_00
00:56:00
when you're five, you take breaks, you take breaks where you curl up in your pajamas in bed and you're like, oh gosh, I can't believe that happened. I can't believe,
SPEAKER_01
00:56:07
I can't believe, you know, and then you'll find that it's actually okay.
SPEAKER_00
00:56:10
And, you
SPEAKER_01
00:56:10
know, yes, I know, actually being an adult is hard, man. It is. So people need to get on your newsletter, basically. So if they go to wearewritingbrave.com, they get on your newsletter and that's where they can really find like the up-to-date, your summit coming up, the writing brave summit, your workshops, and then getting on the secrets of storytelling mastermind next year.
SPEAKER_00
00:56:37
Yes. The waiting list, I open the waiting list like in July. I just start getting people ready. So, but yes, if you go to my website, you can take actually, I have a free quiz there that will tell you your writing routine personality.
SPEAKER_00
00:56:50
So a lot of times people think they have to write every day or they have to write first thing in the morning and you don't and your personality might determine what kind of writing routine works best for you. So I have a quiz there, which is really fun.
SPEAKER_01
00:57:01
Oh, that is fun. Very fun. All right. So we will have the links in the show notes below and that is probably the best place to go find Brooke Adams law, which it is so funny that you say that people think you're a law firm, but she's not. She is a writer who is writing brave and wants you to write brave as well. So thank you so much, Brooke, for coming on the show and talking to us. This is a delight.
SPEAKER_00
00:57:24
Thanks for having me.