242 When Your Writing Gets Rejected with guest Rhonda Douglas

Hello everyone, this is episode 242 of Pencils & Lipstick. I'm Kat Caldwell, the creator and hostess of the show. I'm excited today to talk to you guys about something that happens to every writer. We are going to talk about rejection and how we deal with that as writers. To talk about this, I interviewed Rhonda Douglas. Really, we just had a conversation about it. I really appreciate Rhonda's perspective on it, especially as somebody who has sent off poetry and short stories to contests and literary magazines. I think that's just a little bit of a different perspective. Sometimes indie authors really only get rejection in the form of reviews from readers. And I think while those are difficult, for sure, and we talk about those, they're a little bit, somehow they hit a little bit differently. And so it's good to always talk about all of the rejection that we can come up against as writers. I always tell everyone, you know, there are, in every art form, there is lots of rejection. We love to give our opinion in this society. You know, we love to poke fun at people and think that we have, that our opinion sort of matters, I think, more than other people's opinions, but while I'm sure reading about yourself in the gossip columns as a celebrity is not something that fills them up. I think, my opinion at least, is that as authors, especially people who are just your average person, who you wouldn't recognize on the street, it can feel like a bombardment and almost so personal when you just, you feel like you aren't really anybody and yet somebody felt the need to tell you how much they hated your book. You know, there's just something about that. There isn't, you know, while you get critiqued in other jobs and many times your bonus or your raise sort of depends on this critique at the end of the year, unless you have a really terrible boss, you know, it doesn't, like, you don't get a random day starter of, like, I really hate the

way you work, you know? Like, I don't know. If that's happening to you, maybe you should switch jobs. So there's something about this rejection that we get as writers that can really overwhelm us. It can feel very, very personal. And so we're going to talk about that. And the conversation I had with Rhonda, I recorded a couple about last week, and I'm recording this early, this intro early, because I am about to leave tomorrow to go celebrate 98 years with my grandma, which is amazing. She's an amazing woman and we're really excited to go celebrate with her. But it's funny because today I have spent five hours in the car already driving back from the self -publishing live conference, which was a really small conference in North Carolina, but it was really fun to be there. I got to meet Bill, who I have actually emailed back and forth at some point. So Bill, if you're listening, hello. It was really lovely to meet you. Just hanging out with other authors is great. It actually really lifts you up. And funny enough, this morning I got an email with a contest result. Talk about rejection. Okay, so I just find this very ironic and funny. So, you all know I like to participate in the New York, the NYC Midnight Competition. You have about 24 hours to write 500 words for the short story. In January, I think you have about a week to write 2 ,000 words, I think. And I just love them. They give you a word you have to use, a genre, you know, that kind of pushes you to to challenge yourself and come up with this story very quickly. And so I got the results today as I was driving and I was you know, I'll check it when I get home, I just need to get on the road. And so when I stopped for a rest break, a coffee break, I opened up the email and I am not the first, the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth or honorable mention. My name is not there which means

I do not go on to the next round. And I have to say, you guys, every single time, it kind of hits you. And I sat there and I thought, especially because this conference was a lot about mindfulness and mindset and how we're approaching our author career. And I was very grateful for that, honestly, because I sat there and I thought, wow, this does not feel great. I looked through the judges' critiques, and while they're not wrong, it felt like, oh, you know, I can write better than that. Oh no, they just don't understand, or that doesn't feel fair. You know, just sort of these defensive thoughts we have that go through our heads. And then, because of the conference and some of the things that we were talking about, I took a moment to sit back and think, okay, when did I write this? You trying to look back. And I had written it, I had 24 hours to write it. And unfortunately, there were like four things that happened within that 24 hours. And we ended up having hosting people for a dinner that was not in the plan. And I thought, yeah, my first reaction that I can write better than that." In fact, there were two typos in it. Like, oh, if you're going to send off to a contest, make sure there aren't any typos, which is weird. You know, I pulled it through ProWritingAid, but I didn't catch them because it was like a not a capitalized medication. You know, I should have capitalized it. And I think there was a word missing or something like that, but it's a typo. And so like, okay. And then, And just the criticism, they weren't wrong. Let's just say that. They're not wrong. And in fact, if you want to ever read the criticisms that I get, I actually put them up on Substack in lessons and story. It's on the paid part, but you can get it for very little if you want to read those

and then read the criticisms. But I have to admit, I considered maybe not putting this one up because I was a little embarrassed about the typos and a little embarrassed about the critique that they gave back. But my case in point, A, your story's not going to be for everyone. I really struggled with the words that they had given us. We had to use roof, the act of fixing a roof and use the word yogurt. I really struggled with it. Clearly, many people did not because they had some good stories up there. You're not always going to be on your best day. You're not going to always be as vigilant. You're not always going to be giving the time that you know you should be giving to your story. Perhaps life is getting in the way. Perhaps you have an illness, perhaps anything, right? Perhaps you just couldn't see something that your editor could see, or your readers could see. I think the criticism always helps us grow, but more than anything, it is really good to step back and take a deep breath, and instead of ignoring the feelings, as I love to do, quite honestly, that is my first go -to, ignore them and move on and pretend it didn't happen. See if there's anything in the rejection, in the critique that you can use. Of course I can use go back over it one more time. I think I got it in at like 11 .59, so I don't think I had time, but you know. But that's also the problem. I didn't give myself the time. I didn't clear my schedule. I was struggling with the story. You know, you can always, it doesn't matter how many stories you write, how many times I teach story, I can miss things. You they just didn't love the character, didn't love the circle back that I thought was clever but apparently was not. You know, sometimes the things that you think are clever and interesting are not, according to everyone else, which would mean that they're not. So I just want to acknowledge that we go through rejection. Almost everything that we do, there will be Is somebody willing to critique it and give their opinion on it? If not to your face online, right? Everyone goes through this. It doesn't matter how high up you are.

And you might be thinking, yeah, but if you're, you know, some top name author, maybe it's easier to ignore the reviews, ignore the criticism. them. Maybe, maybe, but probably not. You know, with the day, this day and age of social media and all the online stuff that goes on, you're probably not able to stay to not know about it. I mean, think about Colleen Hoover. She has one of her books made into a mega movie you know with stars playing the characters and lots of people feel very empowered to give very critical reviews of her books you know whether you believe that there's a right to do that or not absolutely we live in a free country right so people are gonna do it and there's no way she doesn't see it I just think like whenever I see something really really critical I think ah man There's no way that she doesn't see that. And so, I just want to tell you, it is okay. Your story isn't for everyone. Sometimes you mess up on your story. You know, you just got to own that.

The rejection's going to come and I think it just helps to talk about it. So I am about to talk about this with Rhonda Douglas. She has her own stories. You're gonna definitely have your own stories. If you ever want to chat about your rejection stories You can find me on Instagram Kat Caldwell underscore writer and you can find my sub stack lessons and story and Comment there. I would love to talk to you about it It helps to chat with a best friend with a parent with somebody that you really love it And it is really good to find a place where there are other writers. And even writers are going to have their own opinion about rejection and how to deal with it. So, you know, you're just going to have to do the work to find that person who sort of meshes with you and is willing to console you, and then to pull you back up and say, okay, time to move on, right?

So, it was good for me to have this conference where I could sort of sift through that and say, you know, it doesn't, it does not mean that you're a bad writer. It doesn't at all. Sometimes it's just that you're writing, that story wasn't for everyone. Sometimes it means that you messed up the story. Maybe it wasn't for that magazine or whatever it could be. In fact, Rhonda goes through quite a few because she's been on the other end as a judge. And so your eyes might be open during this conversation as to what might feel personal is actually on the other end, not very personal. All right. I think especially if they find two typos in my story, that will automatically put it aside because if you are on the other side as a judge, you're looking for a reason to put them aside, right? So, bummer. That's just a bummer for me. So, if you guys want to read my stories and the critiques that I get back, you can find that at lessonsandstory .substack .com. That part is paid for, but again, it's It's very minimal payment.

If you want to see those, I They're kind of going out automatically, so there's quite a few stories coming out every couple weeks. And you can see that. You can learn from my mistakes. You can learn how judges critique. And hey, join the NYC Midnight Contest and you can probably beat me. So let's get into the interview. Today, we are going to talk about rejection and just know guys, you're doing great. You're a good writer. Your story is worth telling. It really, it really, really is no matter what one or two people out there say, okay? Okay. Hi, Rhonda. How are you doing today? Great. Thanks for having me. Nice to be here. Yeah. It's good to see you. This is like twice in a week that we've seen each other. I know, right? Yeah. If you hear a groan or a moan, it's not me. My dog makes noises. Just so you know, this is Mr. Darcy and he's having a day. He's having a day. I love that you named him Mr. Darcy. I that is,

of course you would. Of course. Of course you would. So you are so many things. You're a teacher, a writer, a poet. it. Tell me how you got into this world of writing. How did you become a writer? When did you first call yourself that? I gosh, that's such a good question. I remember writing an essay at school, like when you they were trying to teach you handwriting. Like, I don't know what grade this would have been I would have been like nine and I got a gold star on it. My mom and put it in a special scrapbook. And I feel like that ruined me. And then - I how you say ruined. No, it's like, okay, now you got a gold star. Okay, well, that's all over now, right? So, and then in my teen years, I wrote some poetry and most of it was really, really bad poetry. And I still have like one of the journals tucked away in the closet and it's so bad. It's like, you and mostly about like, you know, boys. It's really angsty, right? Angsty, it's so angsty. Oh my God, cringe. But I also wrote, I remember writing, my grandfather was dying, and I remember writing him a poem and giving it to him, and he cried, and he like wasn't someone who would cry. And I wrote another poem that won a contest, and I got cash money for it. Oof. So like the gold stars and like my grandfather crying and the cash money, like what else was I gonna become? Um, but that, you know, that said, so I did do an English degree first, but then I spent a lot of time at my day job, um, which is, you know, over the years, basically fundraising and nonprofit management.

And so I did that for a really long time. And then I decided to kind of go all in. And I was always writing on the side, like I was always doing, you know, this workshop in that workshop and putting things together. And that way I published a book of poetry, and then I decided to do an MFA, and that got me a book of short stories. And yeah, so I've sort of been, you know, I've really been doing it for a long time, but I didn't get quote unquote serious about it, like, start sending things out to literary magazines till I was in my mid -twenties. Okay, that's still young. I mean, where are the generation that had no social media and you had to go to like the bookstore to find the magazines and flip at the back and see what you were supposed to do. You if I want to write something, like, how do I do that?

Cause you know, the contest was probably something your teacher brought up or someone around you, adults, you in it. And back then, like, being a writer was like, oh, if I could write books, that would be, you know, you're living in an ivory tower somewhere in New York City, like, yeah, I felt very glam. And it was only later that I discovered that I think the average so I live in Ottawa, Canada, the average Canadian writer, I think the average income is something like 8 ,000 Canadian dollars a year. A Yes. And that includes like Margaret Atwood is Canadian, right? Like, so she's in that list to get the average. She's average up. Yeah, right? And then it includes government grants and stuff.

And - you guys have good ones. Are kidding Yeah. I know. Yeah. I know. The world has still not really, I mean, it's average, it's equaled out a little bit, but it's still tough.

So, I wanted to talk to you today about, oh, nobody's gonna like this topic, rejection. Oh, I have lots of experience with rejection. Well, that's the thing, like, it's so weird. It is an art form, right, to write. Especially poetry, like, you are putting kind of your heart and soul, your view of the world into it, but you are in a lot of fiction, maybe not some fiction. We won't go there.

But a lot of times we're spending a lot of time on this thing. And writing a book, it's the one thing, or getting a poem published where everyone has a very thin wall to access, destroying your heart, whether it's an online forum or a review or just sending the queer of like, we don't, I mean, this is how we interpret it. We hate your book. You know what yeah, yeah. You should not be writing. What are you doing? Yes.

And he went outside to be like, that's not what that says. You're like, well, I kind of says that. So when, what is your experience in the very beginning? How did you, and I'll tell you mine, and it might be similar of the kind of that first time that it wasn't always going to be a gold star. Yes, God. So that was, I was sending poems out to literary magazines, and I think, you know, in my early 20s, I didn't realize how cringed they were. Like, I didn't know, you know, I didn't know what I didn't know. I hadn't really started studying creative writing seriously. And I just, I saw these magazines that publish poetry, and I thought, I write poetry. And then I started sending out and of course, you know, just getting rejected. And then I tried writing a play and I submitted that to this local, there was this local theater who would take you on to this like mentorship program, right?

And then in the end you would have your play published, produced and stuff and rejected. And just, you know, so it was - Did you know why though? Like did you - No. No feedback. No, just, and at the time, so do you remember the ye olde sace, the self -addressed stamped envelope? Right? And so you have to prepare like these packages, and they took forever, like it could take you like a whole day to send out like 10 things, and you had to include this self -addressed stamped envelope, a and you would send this out and then you, like if they were going take the poem, they would email you or something, but if they weren't, they'd send you back the SACE. And so, you'd be opening your mail and it'd be like, bills, bills, bills, rejection bills. Yes. Painful.

Except that you don't know that at the very beginning, because the first time you get your SACE back, you're like, oh, they're going to publish my poem. No, honey. No, they not. No. No, they're not. And it's like a form letter. It's so horrible. I don't even sign it. So there's the thing in the literary magazine world, there really is a thing of like, if you get any feedback beyond the form letter, it means they think your stuff is good and they'd like to hear from you again with something else. And I remember when I finally got like the good rejections, right? The rejections that were like, you should send us something else. Or this wasn't quite right, but we enjoyed reading it. Thanks. You know, those kinds of like more personalized things. Or, you know, I would have people say, oh, this came pretty close, but didn't make the final five. And, you we only had space for five short stories or whatever. And then I thought, oh, okay, well, at least I'll keep at it, you know? Okay. But early on, it was really easy to just go, well, I guess I shouldn't bother and like go back to pull the covers over your head. Yes, I feel like you did better than me. When I first got, I had the audacity to send out my entire book to these poor agents. I feel so bad for them.

But what I didn't know at 19 is I got back a guy's three page like feedback on it. Oh my God, you would never get that, no. I don't think you No, probably not. Like the fact that he took the time, but it destroyed me. And I didn't have the sense to, and I didn't have anyone to ask in Wisconsin,

like, what does this mean? It wasn't until like a decade later that someone was like, that means he wanted you to fix it. And Yeah. Respect. It's not what that said. It didn't say that. So you go and just like, okay, I didn't know what I didn't know, but you gotta wonder how many people,

I mean, I didn't send anything in for probably a decade after that when you just think, well, it's just not good. Like, I don't know, I didn't stop writing, you know, but I didn't know what to do with like that, that how to jump that puddle, right, like from writing to actually sending it in. So kudos to you, you got you got through it. Well, I think, so the other thing that happened is eventually, so I started building a community. And so you kind of learn some things, you know, like other writers tell you stuff, right. And and you learn some things as you go along. And then bit by bit, I started a reading series. Or I organized a reading series that was already going here. And then so I got to know more people in the community. And I got asked, because I had done that, I got asked to volunteer to be on the editorial board of a literary magazine, Arc Poetry Magazine, which is Canada's national poetry magazine. And so I was on the editorial board for years, like over a decade, and I loved it. And eventually I became the poetry editor. And so then I'm on the other side, right? And people are sending things. And I remember this one cringe thing. This is also with ARC Poetry Magazine. So I had this is just to show you that like, you can start to have some success and still be an idiot

about reduction. Okay. So I was friends at this point with the sort of casual friends, I would say more acquaintances with the editor of the magazine. And they had, I had won an award from them, um, maybe the year before. And they were in a position where they could recommend that you get a government grant. Oh, it's a little grant, but like, it meant a lot at the time because I was a single mom and self -employed and so it was $1 ,500. And that was probably like my whole monthly budget, you know? And so I wanted them to recommend me and I applied and I got rejected. And I can remember actually emailing the woman and being like, I don't understand, like, you guys just gave me an award, why da da da da, you know, like complaining, basically. I would never do that now. And I just feel like so embarrassed that I did. But she was she was great about it. Like she replied and said, No, I totally understand, you know, your disappointment. And we just had so many people apply. And we just couldn't give everyone that we wanted to a grant and that didn't help me at all. I was like, you know, I was like, okay, but me though. But you like me. Yeah, but wait a minute. I thought you thought my stuff was good. And I guess, you know, the stuff that they gave me the award for, they weren't the judge of the award. I'll also say that. They brought in an external judge.

And, but, but still you kind of thought, oh, I've, you have these little moments you think, oh, I've made it now. And you have this idea early on that like, now that you've had some things published, you'll stop getting rejections. Yes. No, no, that is not how it goes. Every single thing you do can be rejected at any time.

Yay. I know, I think that's the hardest thing ever. Yes. Like, really the hardest thing, it helped me a little to listen to the author who wrote Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, and I cannot remember her name, and I'm so sorry about that. But the amount, like, how she went through every book, and like, and you don't know that one because it bombed, and you don't know this one because it bombed, and you think like, okay, again, this is an industry that you will constantly be rejected. I of the music industry. Cristin Cristin Hanna has, you know, she had published books, but it was sort of like that, like they were way under the radar. Like she was like a mid range writer, like mid list, like, you know, lucky to get the next one published for years and years and years until she had her breakout. Yeah, the Nightingale, right? Yeah. The one. Yeah. I mean, do you think at that point, there is a point though, right? Like you, you write the Nightingale and you make it, but then I think of like the Goldfinch and I'm not sure that her next one was a breakthrough. No. Like, yeah. No. I don't know. That's really disappointing. I don't think there's any guarantee, right?

I think, you know, I think the Nightingale hit a moment, you know, I think she got better as a writer in terms of the pacing of her stories. The Nightingale is unputdownable, right? Yeah, it really is. And I think her, if you read some of her early books, they are not quite as, the stakes are not as high, right? There's nothing like World War II to heighten some stakes. Yeah, she did start like a whole thing. Because man, we couldn't get out of World War II for like Yeah, we're still in World War Two. We're still living World War Two. So, you know, I do think that she shifted some of what she was writing and how she was writing, and just kind of hit a moment. But we have no control over that. Right? Like... It's That's true. Yeah, no control at all.

Yeah, if somebody else had come out with something even more compelling of World War Two, or if she hadn't figured out the sister thing and like, yeah, kind of the opposite, like the two are just like the opposite of each other struggling to find them. Like if she hadn't figured that out, because there's a lot of World War Two books out there that I have put down. Like I'll say, you know, you pick it up, you go, that sounds interesting. And then you put it down. And yeah, you're not, I mean, what I'll say about that is they're still published. Do you know what I mean? like, yes, author still did the work to finish, finish a draft, did the work to revise, got feedback, revised again, did to edit, like they did the work, you know, and, and Kristen Hannah did that work for years and years, years and years. And, and sometimes people will say to me, like writers in my programs will say, I mean, it's just it's gonna take so long. and it's so hard. And I don't know what to say to that, except yes. And also, yes, this is the work. Like, do you want to write a beautiful, you know, you want to create something beautiful that moves people? Yes, that can be hard. It's also rewarding, you know, and absolutely love doing it. And, you know, and the doing of it is its own reward, which I is where we have to be, because that's the doing of it, the process, the practice of writing, it's the only thing we have control over. That's true. And like, and getting help with it. So like, when you don't know what you don't know, you might end up publishing stuff. Like, I mean, I look back, I'm so glad that that first book was not published, you know, or like, you know, and there's nothing to be ashamed of, of authors having published books, because they were good enough to get published, especially before Amazon. When they were gatekeepers, that was even more difficult. So it's not like they were terrible books, but we do have - And book is for everyone. This is true. It doesn't mean that they're like, oh, so bad, but the advantage we have now is to

in a program like yours where you can get better in a kind of smaller group instead of out to the world, because the other problem is you're going to get rejected even if your book gets published by half of the public. Well, but you get rejected. So first you've got to go through the gamut. Like if you're going traditional and you know, then many people decide, Oh, I'm going to try to get an agent. Well, you can catch 75, 80, 100, 120 agents in order to get one agent. And there are thousands of agents. So you're looking for the, like, it's a needle in a haystack search, looking for the one that is for you. So the name of the game there is rejection. You are probably going to be rejected. You're going to be rejected. Oh, and you're also going to be ghosted. Right? Like that's a thing now where like you send it out and they don't even reply. That's a thing. Yeah, they're like, if we don't respond in six months, take it as a no. Go away. It's like, could this not be like dating? Please? Yes, please. Can you at least swipe left? Be really clear. That would be great.

So you kind of have to look at it as I'm looking to get my 100 rejections. That's what I've heard people say. Yeah, that's a thing, hashtag 100 rejections. And I have a friend who did that. So she's a poet and a short story writer, although she also just finished a novel and she was in my first book finish program, but she is amazing. So she took on this 100 rejections where the goal is to reach 100 legitimate rejections in a year. Now, this is way easier if you write poetry or short stories. Right? So she had a lot of material. And so she was always sending stuff out, sending stuff out constantly trying to get her 100 rejections. And every year for three or four years, she did it and she would get her 100 rejections. Like sometimes she'd get them by June or by September, like she would rack them up. But she also racked up acceptances. Yeah, because to some extent, it is a numbers game. So she, I think she, she looked at it in like in one year, she'd had something like 80 things published. Wow. Yeah. But like poems and short stories, but also like poems and short stories, you know, because she was sending them out in like batches of 20 things a week, you know. Wow. That's a lot of work too though. That is amazing. It's a lot of work and also, and in fact, she has said to me, you know, it became something that I would do instead of writing the next thing. You know, it's like a way to procrastinate is, oh, let me send out some more packages. But and she, she just started building this list and just sent and sent and sent and sent and it took the edge off of rejection for her, right?

Because you begin to realize that it is a bit of a numbers game. I mean, if you, if you really are serious about your craft and you've done everything you can to learn and grow as a writer and get progressively better, then you are going to be creating material that someone's going to like. I know when I was a literary magazine editor, like we would take one in 10 pieces. Okay. Now we were a poetry only, but we also did reviews and we did essays and stuff, but we were poetry only. So we could publish more pieces per magazine than a magazine who was publishing also short stories and poetry, right? Because short stories takes 10 pages of the magazine, but a poem takes one or two. But were taking one in 10. And I didn't know that on the outside. So I, you know, I would send out one poem, wait to hear, and six months later, send it another poem. Like you're not going to get anywhere like that. You really do have to take your

one poem. And I tell people to paper the freaking country with it. Like your best poems, and you just send it freaking everywhere. Because it is a numbers game. So it changed where you can do simultaneous submissions for most poetry and, or is that a thing in poetry? I know. It a thing in poetry, simultaneous submissions. And, and it was always a thing. There were all, it's just that there were sometimes some journals would be like, no, we didn't. Yeah, yeah. And whatever, I never sent to them. It's like, well, I can't keep that straight. like three, three journals out of 40 that don't take it like whatever. And now it's the same with like, if you don't take an online submission, I'm sorry, like, it's not 1982. I'm not going to be out there licking my stance. That's crazy that they don't take online submissions. So then I just don't do it. But you know, but you can kind of really like start to get out there. And there are so many great online mags, right? Starting to start with some of the newer online mags. And then kind of work your way up to like the the ones you've always dreamed of being in.

That's something too, though, because when you are starting out, it does, it takes us a little bit of humility, because like, when you're 20, I also sent out. I don't even want to know what that person's face looked like when they were reading my poetry, or my little short micro fiction. I mean. Yeah, I do feel badly for whoever was doing the slush pile at the New Yorker in my, in I mean, like, well, if David Zadaris can do it, well, I'll show you I've got this great story. I mean, I'm glad I can laugh about it now.

And me, it was like Granta and the Paris Review and all the Paris Review. Yes, you know, all the big names and why wouldn't you? Because really, all it said is literary story, you know, that we don't take genre, but we do take literary. well, that's what I write, because I am just that good. And it's funny, because as I started publishing in literary magazines, I stopped sending to those guys. So that's interesting. Like I would, I kind of found a space that I could be successful in. I did a certain amount of work around trying to figure out what contests, writing contests with literary magazines that I could send to.

And then I found that I would get, maybe long listed or shortlisted and occasionally win one. And that was huge. That feels good though. I feel like, yeah, that changed a lot. And I feel like it had a lot to do with getting the collection of stories published that some of them had won awards. Well, there's something to that. But think maybe psychologically, when you are also teaching, or you want to get the next one, when you say you're shortlisted, there's, I feel like there's more weight in our brains than it's been published, like I've been published here. You say shortlisted, and you really like, even if they haven't heard of the contest, I think it's just one of those weird brain things that we have, like, it's funny because I've been shortlisted and won a bunch of literary prizes for, you and none of them have my parents ever heard of. Like, like nobody I know, if you're not a writer, like you've never heard of these magazines, you haven't, you know, like, it's a very small little world. So early on, I was like, Oh, look at me. I'm so amazing. I got the thing. But like, it doesn't matter all that much, you know? If it doesn't start with P and end with Olitzer,

most people haven't heard of it. That's right. Yeah, exactly. So true. So, um... But in our world, it feels good. So I'm not going to take that away. Yeah, no, listen, I'll take it any day over like the, this isn't suited for our purposes letter, you know? I will take it. But, um, but I think I, it meant more to me, um, earlier on than it does now. And the other thing is I've also been fortunate enough to

be a juror on prize juries. Having seen the back end of a literary magazine, having been on several prize juries and grant juries, you just kind of realize it's so subjective. Like, if one juror was different, it'd be a totally different set of prizes awarded, you know? There's a lot of horse trading. It tends to be the ones that, like the ones that everybody agrees on, you know, those, let's say you need five. Okay. Everybody agrees on these three. These threes are through, but now it's like, who has the loudest voice?

And if it's, you and so it's, it's so subjective. Yeah. It's an art. Right. You win. And then it's a total like. Yeah. And then it's like, of course. It's like, no, it is a very objective assessment of quality in literature. When everybody else wins, it's subjective. Yes. Yeah. It's a weird art form. I mean, I walk into museums and I have opinions on all the paintings, you know, and you have opinions on on books and literature and what makes literature. And yeah, it is, it's gonna, of course, become subjective in anything. And I think anyone who doesn't know, sending to agents is also very subjective, or bad luck, because they already found a book just like that, and haven't updated their website. And they say they're no longer looking for that or whatever it is, you know, they sold one just like yours last week, and now they

can't go to that editor with yours. So they turn you down. And they don't tell you that. Yeah, they just say no. And for some reason, we take it. I mean, for some reason, we take it very personally, usually. Yeah, we do. Because it feels like, but I want to be a writer. And you're saying, I mean, we just we sort of interpret that to it. So I hope what we're saying is that, you to encourage people to kind of do the hashtag 100 rejections, especially if they're in poetry or short stories. I do like contests because I have found in contests, you'll get more feedback. You're more apt to get feedback in a contest. Yeah. Sometimes they say that, like if every, you know, especially if there's a fee, like if you pay the $25 or $40 fee, we will give you feedback. And, you know, I like that. And if I if I don't have other avenues for feedback, I think that's really great. I think the thing with contests is just to be very strategic. So I have looked at contests and seen who the judge was and decided, nope, I won't submit because what I'm writing is not what that judge will like. I know that judge, I know what they write. They're not going to like my stuff, you know? So, but I've equally, I've looked at other contests, seen the judge and went, Oh, I think I've got a shot here and twice I won, you know, so like, and it was because I knew that that judge kind of liked the kind of like the kind of stuff I was writing, which I think is totally fine.

Like, it's like anything, you have to be strategic about stuff. You're going, you're not going to send your historical fiction to an agent that says they only do sci -fi like, or, you know, I mean, there is strategy. There's strategy to all of this. So you, so when you were doing the, the working as an editor, were you also writing where you also sort of, I always, and that kind of, that was a bit of a double edged sword because on the one hand you could see that it's a numbers game and you could see that, I will say that there was so much that was submitted that was just clearly they'd never read the magazine. Yeah, right. Like we would just get stuff that clearly was, it was not for us. And if you'd read the magazine, you would have known it was not for us. I mean, I was totally guilty of that when I was younger. Yeah, same. I also did. But so when you actually just look at like, what's the, what's the stuff that that is a fit, possible fit. Okay. Now you're looking at a numbers thing.

The other thing, and I'm just going to say this out loud. It meant reading a lot of bad to mediocre poetry. Like there was a lot of just people who I would say they were pouring their hard out on the page, but they were not taking the time to learn the craft of poetry, and then working with it to to make it better, you know, to make it something that means something to someone that isn't you. And so, you know, full of cliches and, you know, kind of vague and, you know, not very rich in images. And it was a lot of that. And because you ended up reading a lot of that, you sort of every time you got rejected, you kind of felt like even worse because you thought wait a minute like I did take the time to like edit it and shake it and think about it and get rid of my cliches and they still don't want it oh my god you know like it kind of got worse right oh no oh no it's like you want to write back and be like what pile was I in yeah what pile exactly before you threw me in the trash

But at the same time, I guess it's really shaping, even if you have the concept of poetry, had you done your MFA at that point? No, God, no. Okay, so you're learning at the same time, instead of getting this sort of vague, no thanks, it wasn't for us, whatever, you're learning why certain things just, that's not as good as this, right? you're able to compare the rejected with the with the accepted.

And I was I was trying to learn like I was doing all the you know, workshops and retreats and classes and everything that I could afford to do I would do. And but I think even now like the thing is artists objective. So even now I'll write a poem and I'll think that's okay, like that's not bad. And then I'll put it away and I'll take it out like three weeks later and be like, Oh my god, how did I ever think that that had anything to it at all, you know, and but I'll send it to a mentor and they'll be like, Oh, no, that's pretty good. Just, you make these few changes. And it, you sometimes you just don't know, you know, it's, it's hard for us to judge your own work. It is subjective. Yeah, which which gets us into it's really hard to edit your own work. So you definitely need to find someone else. And I think that, you know, you learn from the hundred rejections, right? You do learn, like, your friend, and she might have been, I don't know if she would have been on a podcast, but I heard somebody say that as well. Like,

the more they got rejected, actual, actually, the more they got accepted too. It wasn't equal, but it was like, no, it's not equal, but it's, you encouraging, we'll say. And so you You that way and you sort of get, I guess, the edges get rubbed down a little bit more, right? It doesn't feel as personal, maybe. But then also the more that you go through the process of editing, because I feel like that, your first reaction, whenever I work with first -time writers, I know, I always tell them, you're gonna feel poorly about how much red there is there. But it's okay. We're gonna talk through it. And it's okay to have this emotional reaction to it. And you might need to process it because it does, again, even if you're working with a mentor who loves you, wants you to succeed, wants you to succeed, exactly. But you're always you're going to learn even more about story and about the craft because there is, there is something to learn, right, whether it's poetry, short story or novels. It's not all intuitive. No, there's there is this craft to it. That's really important. Yeah. And I think there was one thing that helped me. I've never done the 100 rejections, but I think it's a great tool for kind of desensitizing yourself to rejection. And I think the other tool that I did use

is something I call the 48 hour rule. So if I get something rejected, whether it's a query letter for a novel or something to an agent or something out to a literary magazine, I get rejected and I have 48 hours to whine and complain to all my writing friends and we all agree it's incredibly unfair. The whole system is stacked against us, blah, blah, blah. You know, a pint of Ben and Jerry's non -dairy,

Cherry Garcia, take to my bed and just, you know, to hell with the world. Like I get 48 hours, then it goes out again. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Because it is a numbers game and you just can't give up. You just can't. Yeah, really, you really can't. And not to be a complete downer, But even when you get an agent, they might retire or whatever. You might have to do it again. And I, for me personally, it's nice to listen to these, these stories about people because they will talk about their terrible journey, you know, like what you, like in the moment it feels terrible.

I already had an agent. I have to find a new agent. I couldn't sell this book because I switched genres. And again, like you were saying before, it is not always just I made it. I got I had a blockbuster book and now I made it and now everything's going to everyone's gonna love me. And I think and I have so many friends that that has happened to where like, it's not so hard to get an agent and then the agent couldn't sell the book. Oh, I forgot about that. You know, like, that's a thing that happens as well. So, you know, but you, but you have to keep going, right? When you come, what do you do? You write the next book. Yeah. And you have that happen, who like had a book, had a book really take off. And so suddenly, they're like, what else you got? She went back and pulled the other

thing out of the real thing. Yeah. So I think, you know, this this happens all the time. And we don't talk about it. Like a A lot of times people won't talk about it. They won't say, you know, my book died on sub, which is what it's called, right? The agent went out with it and it just, it died. Or the book came out, but it got savaged by some critic somewhere and then it died, you know? Or it came out the same day as like James Patterson's 100 millionth book that somehow, you know, whatever. That he's not even writing anymore. I know. Yeah. It's just his name now. With somebody. Or like Kristin Hannan, let's say, I would hate to come up with the same name as you imagine? I'd be terrible.

Imagine writing a book about a nurse in the Korean, was it the Korean War or the Vietnam War? Vietnam. Right? And your book is also about Vietnam and Kristin Hanna's book comes out and it's being promoted like crazy and there's yours. Yeah. So I really do think that the only solution is to stay focused on process and understand that when we meet the market, we have no control over it. I teach something called, it's basically the circle of influence and the circle of control. So at the heart, you have this circle that is the circle of control and it's everything that you can control. So writing practice, how much editorial work you put into the book, finding the right agents, doing a kick -ass query package, all of that you can control. The stuff you can influence is outside of that circle. And it's things like not giving up with getting an agent, making sure you're doing a good job of like building your author platform, learning a influence that, but like you don't have influence, you don't have control over something going viral on BookTok and now your book is the latest thing. Right, right. You know, you don't have control over that. You can influence it by being on BookTok, you can't control it. And so I think we want to put all of our attention and emotional effort into the things we can control because otherwise, I think we go mad.

I actually had a mentor I was working with and she was a literary writer. And the reason I wanted to work with her is because it was through this program and you got to choose your mentor, you know? So, and I picked her cause she'd been published in the New Yorker. And I was like, God, that's amazing. Anyway, this was a few years later. This was at least a decade after that.

and she was so bitter. Like she hadn't been published in the New Yorker recently. She hadn't, and she'd won awards, but she hadn't won any awards recently. So she was convinced that like everybody was out together and, you know, and, and she was profoundly unhappy. Do you want to live that life? I don't, I want to live, I want a writing life I love. And so I've got to stay focused on the things I can control. I think that's an amazing piece of advice because I think what you what you just said it's like we will go mad Because when we try to take control of what we can only influence. I think that is like if If you leave with anything today It's like stop trying to control the things that you only influence and spending all your time on it Like you're making it mean something about you and about your life And so on, you know, and it's easy to say that. It take work, like it takes, it takes the work to get like the ninth, 18th, 39th rejection from an agent and go, it's not about me. It's not about the book. I believe in my project and I'm just going to send, you know, after my 48 hours are up, I'm going to send out package number 40. That does take work. Like I'm not saying it's easy, but it's work that's worth doing because you build up a kind of resilience that you need, like you just need that muscle. And it also has, for me anyway, it has like overflow effects into

the rest of my life. So, yeah. But we're not going to about my dating life, so. All the other life. But also if you are, if you've been gifted with a talent and all of us write something, right? Like that is what we feel feeds us. I think you do only have kind of two choices, to keep working on your writing and to always be a little humble in that you can always get better, right? You can always take feedback better, or write better, whatever, or you can become better. And like, become the person who someone else is so excited to hear from, but you literally can't dig yourself out of that bitterness hole. And, you know, not even see that this young woman wants your mentorship because you've spent a decade being bitter. I mean, because I think it eats at you, right? If you don't keep writing, like you said, if you don't keep working on your craft and have that next project ready to go, just because you love writing, you know, and to get back to that. And I think that's also at a very practical level, part of how you manage yourself. So did you just send out like 20 agent packages? Get back to the draft of the next novel. Yeah.

Even if you get the agent, you don't know if they're going to be able to sell it. And if they sell it, you don't know how well it's going to do but at some point you're going to need another one. So get back to it. And also, yes, sometimes it can be difficult and hard. And, you know, we tell ourselves those stories about it being difficult and hard. There was, I love what Cheryl Strayed had to say about that,

about like, well, coal mining's hard, but you don't hear coal miners complain. You know, they just go and like, go back down into the mine. You like, so it's not, I mean, yes, it's hard, but also it's not that hard. And you're choosing it, and you did find it compelling at some point. And you don't have to do it. There's lots of people in this world who don't write books. So if you're going to choose to do it, choose to enjoy it and get back to it. Like, send yourself out into the world and now get back to the writing because it's the only thing you have control over. It's the only thing that is so true. So you now help people get back to the writing, right? So before we go, would you tell us a little bit about how? Because I think I constantly tell writers if trying to do this alone, Like, if you look at, I don't have it on me,

but I just finished Keri Soto is Back, great little book. But at the end of the book, she has a page and a half of people she is thanking. Oh yeah, it's always, you know. The section is always like, yeah, it's page and a half, two pages, three pages, four pages. So many people, so why just, you know, those of us kind of a little bit lower than, why do we think we have to do it alone? we don't need to do it alone, like we need to go out, we need to be challenged, we need to be shaped, we need to learn and help edit, you know, maybe we won't get on a literary magazine board, but we can help edit someone else's work and learn from that. So, yeah. So how do you, what is your program about and how do you help writers get back to that work? Yeah. So my program is called First Book Finish, and it's for the writer. It's just it's for women and non -binary writers who have started a book but struggled to finish it on their own. And not everybody needs additional support, but many do. And it's a program of support

and accountability. So I talk about loving accountability because it's possible also to set up like a kind of accountability in your own life. And you end up with the friend who just says, how's your book coming? How's your book coming? When's your book going to be finished? When's your book going to be finished without sort of knowing what's involved, you know? So it's accountability as well as support on craft, but I do a lot of work on mindset. So we need to know the craft. We need to know, you know, how to structure a book and what goes into writing a book, but we need a lot of support on mindset.

I think that the biggest reason most books don't get finished is we just can't cope with ourselves. When we hit a snag, when we're like, I don't know what goes in act two, and we just go down a little horrible rabbit hole of, it means I'm not meant to be a writer, it means this book's no good, you know, why am I even bothering? And we just, and if you don't have someone to pull you out of that, it can be so hard. And so people often, someone tell me I've spent 10 years on a book. It's like, no, you spent like three months on a book and gave up. And then a year and a half later, you spent another month on a book and gave up. And the reason you gave up was the mindset stuff that you didn't have a supportive container around. So a lot of it was finished as well. Yeah. And then I have, you know, I have a method for drafting and a method for revising. And it kind of takes the overwhelm out of things and break things down like step by step. Oh, I do this and that. Awesome. Instead of like, routing in on you all at once, you know, yes. And it's important to to have people who understand where you've been and what you know, sort of, okay, that's understandable. We all believe that you can do this. so let's rally around all each other and let's get it done because you have the accountability, but also like the encouragement. We can do this. We can let's learn together and get it done. Yeah, we can do it. So that's the program and I love it so much. You I just, there's nothing I would rather do than support writers to finish their books and get them out into the world. And yeah, and so that's, that's ideally what I spend most of my days doing. And then I do have a day job. And also, I write my own books. So you know, yeah, that comes so I like in the trenches, I know what it's like. Exactly. That's what I love about you and in several other teachers is they are actually in the in the trenches with people. You can have wonderful coaches, there are actually really wonderful writing teachers out there that don't write themselves. And, you know, just like there's basketball coaches that are extremely talented, but there is something to having your mentor know,

you just like that solidarity. She knows, she knows. So, if somebody is listening to this, and, you know, we've kind of gone way down low in this episode and coming back up a little bit more. If they're thinking, oh, that's me, I've been working on it for 10 years, but I want to sort of get it finished, where can they find you and how does the program work? Does it start in January or how does it work? So I've just taken in a group now, so you couldn't join at the moment, but I will be opening it up again, probably the end of January or early February.

And I take in relatively small groups of like 20 to 25 people at a time, because I need to know the writer. I to know the book. I to know what's going on in the writer's life. And so, you know, there's a limit to how much you can do there. So, but I, so I have a podcast called the Resilient Writers Radio Show. So if you're listening in a podcast app, you can just search that and it'll pop up. So they could listen to me there. And, you know, I do interviews with other writers and I am really big on resilience as a writer. So, if you also go to resilientwriters .com, plural, resilientwriters .com, there's a whole section with resources and you can find a few things that'll probably, you know, help with whatever struggle you're dealing with right now. Yeah, and we'll have the links in the show notes. And I would encourage people to at least get on newsletter to sort of be notified to maybe follow you on on social media and that because you know we're about to go into that really busy season and let's face it we might not be writing as much so it's starting into like 2025 we're going to finish our book you know follow follow rondo see what she's doing see if it's right for you and yeah get in in january february i also do a little boot camp so it's called the book finishers boot camp and i'll be doing one in january and it's $37 for basically a week of sessions with me where I walk through some of the tools and tactics to help you get to the finish line, so. Okay, and that'll introduce them to you a little bit more and yeah, awesome. We will have all those links in the show notes. And again, I just encourage you guys to get on Rhonda's newsletter. I think it is one of the best ways to be notified, you know, to not forget, don't forget that book. You guys want to finish it in 2025. And I hope that we brought it back up to a positive. Rejection is something we have to deal with, right? And we have to sort of figure it out. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Rhonda, for coming on and talking to me today. That was lovely.