243 What's Under Your Bed? with guest Rebecca Dolence

Hello

everyone, welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is episode 243 of the podcast. I'm Kat Caldwell and welcome to Halloween week. If you're in the Western world, maybe it's just the Western world? Well, if you celebrate Halloween or you celebrate All Saints Day, this is one of those weeks, isn't it? And Diwali, I guess, starts as well this week.

It's just a big week. So, to celebrate Halloween, I brought in a friend of mine to talk about horror stories, specifically children's horror stories, which at first I thought was a little strange as a topic but then she started talking to me about what are considered horror stories and I was like oh my gosh I've read like half of those as a kid. So we are gonna talk about what makes a children's horror story. Her name is Rebecca Dolenz and she's going to tell us you know kind of the tropes that you need, the things that you should leave out specific to children. And then I'll have her back and we can talk about the difference with adult horror stories. I think it's, we talked about this too, like horror seems like such a strange word sometimes. I don't know what kind of household you were brought up in but for like the first half of my life we didn't celebrate Halloween because it was like too scary and then then my mom like stopped caring and I was just, I don't really like horror movies, like the gory ones, but then it's interesting to hear that you know there's a whole other category like psychological horror which I have seen some of those and do enjoy them. So I don't know I learned a lot I hope that you'll learn a lot and if you're thinking about writing scary stories for kids you're not alone so come stick with us and you'll get to

that interview in just a second. Some of you might know that NaNoWriMo is coming up and there's a lot of controversy about it and there are some people kind of capitalizing on the controversy about it especially for those who really liked Nano and you know we're looking forward to it and now it's you know I don't know some people are decided not to participate I believe I don't get involved in these little discussions but it seems to me like this year it is about, like, their stance on AI. To me, the idea that they weren't very proactive in getting rid of people who were being inappropriate with minors and they knew about it is a little more important to me than their stance on AI. But it's okay, whatever, you know, wherever

you came in on the game, if you are not participating in NaNoWriMo, there's a couple people out there who are doing something instead. Lots of writer groups. So check around Facebook. Sarah Cannon I know is doing something, though I don't know if it's still open. But you know, here's the thing with NaNoWriMo. A, I was always frustrated with it. This started like 20 years ago, right? So I first found out about it when I was living in France with little babies. And while, you know, the idea was kind of exciting, I also found it very frustrating because Because November is a very busy month, especially for moms, whether you work at home, you work full time as a kid, as a raising children, or you work full time outside of the home and you're raising children. It's just a really busy month and it's like the worst month ever. I just found it like super anti -mom to choose November.

And here's the thing, like while I can understand the idea of wanting to encourage people to write every day and to really get their book done, I can admire that. There was a message that I sent out to my newsletter this week that seemed to resonate with a lot of people. And I say that because I received like 20 emails in reply and I'm still receiving replies from people who enjoyed the newsletter. And I don't usually get that many replies, like I might get five, you know, not 20. And I can see right now on my email, I actually have two more that I haven't read. So this message seemed to resonate with people. And the message was that the book that you are writing is going to take the time that it takes to write it. While we can participate in these summits, and we can get new tools, and we can always be searching for something that will help us write faster, better, get the book out now, put the pressure on ourselves, Ultimately, if you are thinking and working on your book a couple times a week, that is enough.

It is okay. And I came up with this idea because, well, it's not my own idea, right? But I wrote this up because the truth is I am always looking for a way to write faster because I have more ideas in my head than time to put them on paper. But the other problem is, I sometimes take a while to figure out that thing that each book needs. So the book that I am working with now, still the second one for my historical romance, and while I had a really busy October, it's not November yet, but it's almost, but I had a super busy October, I knew that I wasn't going to be able to write. I wanted it to be done before I got busy, it didn't happen because I know that there's something wrong with it.

So then I figured out, I was walking one day and I was like, oh my goodness, I figured it out, I know what it is, and now I'm really anxious to just get it done. So I'm almost done, right, I'm like five chapters away from being done. And I sat down the other day, and I was writing, I was fixing, you know, it's, the manuscript is done but there's like something missing to it and I said oh my goodness I'm very excited about this now I think that I'm gonna actually finish it this weekend this is great and then I actually realized that I had an entire like mini plot that I hadn't wrapped up at all I completely forgotten about it until I was sort of rereading you know the next chapter that I had to edit and make sure things were right. So I have to go back and I have to redo the scene that I just redid to make sure that there's a little rabbit trail in that scene so that I can wrap up this little nugget of the story. So yes there are people out there who are so invested in their series and their characters that they're just churning out, you know, this long series of life of this town or this planet or this school or whatever and they're in it and they, I don't know, maybe they just have a talent I don't have. Maybe they just have been inside that world so much that they know it and they don't forget the nuggets of information. I pretty much write standalones even if they might be interconnected a series so maybe I'm giving myself excuses here because in the end it's just it's taking the time that it's gonna take and because I'm not willing to let go of it until my gut is willing to let go of it I'm gonna have to be okay with that and it's it really is okay you know once it's out I will find the readers they will enjoy it and I will be writing something else and and okay. You know, whether it had finished yesterday or a month ago just doesn't make that much of a difference in the scheme of life. And what's funny is I was talking to my friend, Stacey Juba, who is going to edit it, and she got really sick this last month and could not have been editing it.

And so there you go. Like it's funny how it's like, well then why do I feel, I know a lot of it's just internal, but I just want to let you know. It is okay to not let go of your book yet if you're not ready to let go of it. It's also okay to let go of it to an editor if you're kind of done and you need some brainstorming. It is okay to get a coach for a couple sessions if you feel like you need it. It is okay to take a break and come back. There is no real pressure, right? Unless you have sold a contract and been paid for it.

And then if you're stuck, I would get a coach or somebody to like help you, right? But you know, sometimes we just need the time to marinate in the story and in the book. And the book just has the gestation that it has. And there isn't any magic bullet to it as many classes or workshops that you go to as many craft books as you read. I likened it to baking a cake. You know you can sort of claim that you're taking a cup of this book here and a pinch of that workshop here but in the end you've got to put the batter into the tin and stick it in the oven and it has to bake for the amount of time that it has to bake. There's no

pushing it, right? There's no making it go faster. Excuse me, I had to cough off camera. So I just hope that that encourages you a little. I know that sometimes, depending on your personality, it might be difficult to look around and see people just churning out books. It might be difficult to walk into a bookstore and be like, oh my gosh, all these other people got their book done. Why can't I get mine done? It's okay. Your book is marinating. It has a longer gestation. it's okay. Just let it be. Keep thinking about it, keep working on it, get the help that you think you need. If you do want to go faster then I would recommend finding a coach and I've interviewed quite a few of them and I can recommend one to you or you can, you know, talk to me and see if I'm a good fit for you but if I'm not, if you're looking for something specific, I will help you. I It's, it's, your book is gonna be great. And you know what? You're gonna be more proud of it if you take the time that you feel that you need, okay? So I hope that that encourages you guys a little bit. Cause I gotta say it to myself quite often. So, but if you are writing a children's horror story

and you're needing a little push, I've got just the push for you. We are gonna talk to Rebecca Dolenz in just a second. Before I get into the interview, I always forget to tell you guys, if you like the podcast, please like and subscribe on whatever platform it is that you're listening. If you're on YouTube, it helps to, I think, follow, subscribe, I don't know. I don't know what you're supposed to do, follow, like, subscribe, do the things. And if you enjoy it and you have a writer friend, please share the podcast. We haven't had any reviews in a while. It would maybe help if you review it.

I don't really know. I am not looking to make this podcast super mega big. I love all of you who listen. I loved meeting Bill a couple weeks ago who said, oh, I listened to your podcast. I love that. I feel like we're a little, like a small family and I don't want us to be like a million people family. I wanna keep us cozy. but all that to say definitely share it. I know I'm like contradicting myself here. If you guys are looking for more writing tips and thoughts and all this stuff you can either subscribe to my newsletter which the link is below. You can also follow me on Substack and my my writing tips are free and I'm also doing a thing there where I share my short stories and the critique that I get back from my short stories if I get critiques back, if I've, you know, sent them off to a contest or a magazine. And that is, like, subscribe to. You can read the short story, but to read the critique, you have to subscribe. That's just a little thing. If you want to support me and my work, it kind of goes all into the podcast and all that because I don't monetize the podcast. If you're listening on Spotify and you get an ad, that's Spotify. Sorry. story. So if you are looking for more of me, go to substack, lessonsinstory .substack .com, or you can get on my newsletter, or you can follow me on all of, almost all of the social

media. All right. So without further ado, let's talk to Rebecca about scary stories. It's October, everybody. It's the time of year that horror writers sharpen their pencils and lipstick liners. And maybe our best friend will be eaten by a Bogart in our story and maybe he won't. Or maybe we can lock a group of strangers in a dimly lit cellar. And furry creatures with fangs as long as claws scrape at the staircase leading to their only exit. But don't worry, we're going to avoid dolls that move on their own when no one is watching. and hope we don't trip while running from the guy with the chainsaw. If you're too scared, turn on the lights. Creatures hate bright lights. They always disappear. Keep some iron in your pocket. Monsters fear the metal. And in case you were wondering, no, we're not saving the children from scary stuff. We're cooking them in the filling. Oh my gosh, Rebecca. I have one of my favorite horror writers and horror coaches on the show today. I have Rebecca Dolenz. Did I say that right? You sure did. And we are going to talk about writing horror. How are you doing, Rebecca? I

am doing great. I'm wearing my Thinking of You shirt with the pinpricks all in it. So I am ready to go feeling good. And we're going to

talk about writing horror for little kids,

for little graders. So maybe some people think like, Why would you write horror for kids? But it's a thing. I mean, think of the fairy tales.

Fairytales go on to, what is that? Freeform right now. You got Hocus Pocus. You got Nightmare Before Christmas. We could go down the list. Transylvania. These are all middle grade horror flicks.

How did you get into horror? Did you like it as a middle schooler?

All right, I'm gonna date myself. My first horror flick was Gremlins.

Oh my gosh, my brother freaked me out with Gremlins. Like for real. Oh my gosh, that's true. It is a horror.

Yeah, it's a horror flick, but it's still for younger people because there's no blood and guts. I mean, we'll get into all this, but there's no blood and guts spewing all over the place. It's a fun, you have an antagonist and you have someone that's trying to stop the antagonist from making gremlins all over the world. What could be better?

Literally, how did they come up with that? But as a kid, I was afraid of monsters under the bed, like every time the lights went out. And boogeymen in the closet. And the witch might come creeping

at the windows when you're trying to fall asleep.

Oh my gosh, the the branch near your window, even though you know the trees right there because you climb it all the time.

And it's right there, but somehow your brain does crazy things. So yeah, I was hoping today we can talk about not just middle grade writing, maybe some basics of it for your listeners and viewers, but how to kind of get involved with writing some of the horror scenes, but for appropriate age groups.

That's pretty important,

I think. I would think so too because when I watched Jason the first movie at far too young You know that changes your whole world. It's so cool. So my nephew is seven Okay, he runs around wearing Michael Myers clothes mass. He's got the little plastic knife everywhere He's seven. He's never seen any of the movies because that's it's too much, but he watches them on I think it's um, it's like a Lego YouTube video or something of all these characters. So they're happy and they go lucky, but that you know, they have their full costume on. And he loves it. He wants to be Chucky. He wants to do this. He was I was just visiting with him this past weekend. He's running around. He's a little guy. He's seven. He's running around this whole park, this this farm that we went to this apple orchard farm thing. And he's got his Beal juice outfit on. And He's got his mask in his hand that looks just like Beetlejuice. You just run around and play.

He's having a great time. Does he know about the scary part? No. But Beetlejuice is also for younger people. So, right.

Right. OK. So let's talk about the basics for horror writing for kids. I think it's so funny because I think do we usually call it scary movies or scary? You know what? That is really

important, because when I was looking up, Like, you know, some of the books I read, like Neil Gaiman has written, The Graveyard Book, Coraline, those are kind of weird, creepy, but they're mentally weird, creepy.

Yeah.

When I looked at those, and I looked at like Always October, or I looked at movies, it doesn't say horror at that young age. It'll say scary. It'll say monster. It'll use the word creepy. Like, you know, when you break it down into the ISBN, you can see all that. it's not labeled as horror. So you have to kind of look for that.

Okay. But are they, do you sort of, are the basics the same or the, are the basics different for writing for middle schoolers versus adults?

You know what? There's a difference. We, maybe, um, if everyone, everything goes well, you can have me on again. We can discuss,

and adult because, um, you know, there's, there's stages of

the

brain, the way your brain moves and thinks, you know, okay middle graders aren't really into the world

you know

they only know their home their their playgrounds their soccer games so they really haven't experienced the world the way us adults have of seeing really traumatizing things luckily hopefully um so so there's a different way to write for each one of those so we'll stick to middle grade for the time being because when you throw in the gore and the slasher movies and and and things that that you know or really can twist someone's belly. That's not for middle grade.

That's not for middle grade. All right, so when you, so I did read The Graveyard. I have not read Always October. So The Graveyard book, I feel like, do you feel like Neil Gaiman writes a little higher? Like, are they for middle grade? Or - I'm

it's a higher level middle grade. Like an intellectually, right? like he gets a little, I don't know, it's not as, he's British.

British, what can you say? They think smarter than us Americans. They

have that accent. I don't know. So how does that compare with Always October? I haven't read that one.

Always October would be a younger middle grade age group, but they follow the same lines the same the same basic concept of all middle grade to have to keep the sentences short you know that there's not really challenging words okay there's there's short chapters there's short sentences everything follows chronological order you still have a setting so all these still play

the same role and when you're looking at younger middle grade versus a little bit older middle grade the discrepancy like you're saying Neil Gaiman writes a bit higher, a higher intellect for reading, but at the same time, it's the same type of scare. So, so Neil Gaiman will start off with the man was holding a knife. It was a sharp knife that could cut through you without you even knowing, not immediately. That's a great opening line. I that was paraphrased because you know, I don't remember. No,

I love that opening to the graveyard book. It's pretty creepy.

It's creepy right away and and what happens is is This this guy in a man named Jack. He's the antagonist He kills a whole family and and to some viewers readers could be like, oh my god, how can you do that? But it's written so well, there's there's no blood. There's there's no screams. There's no terror in that It's almost like it's almost I don't know Just just literal information of the guy walked up the stairs and he wiped off his blade didn't ever mention the word blood But he wipes off his blade and he goes for the kid who's left to the graveyard. So there's intricacies. And with Always October, it starts out with, we have two weeks before my little brother

Jake turns into a monster. Oh, that's intriguing. Right. So it catches the reader's attention, but then it still goes into the storyline. Because you know, regardless of any kind of story that you want to write, you still have your character that has to change by the end. And you have an antagonist or something that's trying to stop them plain and simple.

So

when you're getting into when you're going through the chronological aspects of horror, you still have a basic storyline. But your antagonist is throwing you off with scary stuff, versus, you know, the bully at school. It's the same concept. But it's, it's, it's just that slight adjustment to make prickly hairs on the back of your

neck, like a prickle. So, so when you're talking about like the character arc, the they're still trying to overcome is it a lot of times they're trying to overcome a fear in horror? Or it have to? Or could it be kind of anything? Are there like, yeah,

no, it's not necessarily a fear of something. So so for instance, we'll go back, you know, we could throw in Hocus Pocus. Yeah, right. The movie Hocus Pocus. The kid opens the book, which is a trope of of horror is the scary like necromancer or whatever book it's called. And I know I didn't say that. Right. So don't judge me. But you

have

the scary book, or you have the cabin in the woods, whatever. And and in Hocus Pocus, it's not that he has a fear of witches. Yeah at all. It's it's about you know, he meets a girl He's trying to to stop the witches and and there's a there's a scare factor you know when they're in the boiler room in the basement and trying to push the witches in and they think everything's good and It's not good but throughout their whole process this the the protagonist, the boy, I don't remember his name offhand. Yep, he's learning everything. He's learning how to be himself. He's learning how to weaken, you know, feelings inside of him that he's never had before. So it's not about fighting a fear per se. It's still about growing. And it just so happens that there's a lot of scary witches that are help pushing him forward.

Right, right. So when you're thinking about like middle grade, that's not sort of paralleling it you with horror you're throwing in the sort of speed bumps are something scary or like maybe a more scary ish creepy villain whereas like it's not just like a mean teacher or mom and dad are getting divorced or something like that where that might be more of a literary middle middle

unless the mean teacher actually secretly is doing something else and when they're not looking and everyone's got this weird feeling like there's something wrong with this teacher why doesn't anyone believe me

yeah oh that would be a good one is that right

there's there's something wrong with that I just finished reading it was called demon dentist again it was a British person but that was a concept like the person came up on stage I'm to be your new dentist and this boy is like, there's something wrong here. I trust this person. It's using your, you that's teaching kids how to use their, their gut, how to use their intuition, as opposed to, okay, someone told you what to do, just do

it. No, think for yourself, feel for yourself. And of course, the dentist turned into, you know, a witchy lady who's stole teeth from underneath the, your pillowcases and left like little eyeballs or creepy crawly things or something. So, you know, again, it's, it's not really gross, you know, like the nightmare before Christmas, there's a lot of gross things in there. Yeah.

But it doesn't like make you like some of the horror, the adult horrors, I almost can't, cause I'm such a visual person that I'll like, I'll literally have dreams for days on end,

but you know, the, the younger scary movies I can do. Cause they're not, they're just, they're gross in a different way. They're not, I don't know, I guess as an adult, maybe I'm like, well, that can't happen. But a man with a chainsaw could totally hide

behind the chainsaws. Let's hide behind the chainsaws. It goes through like every trope of horror, which is great.

So how important is this is this setting in I mean, I guess you could set it anywhere like nail diamonds the graveyard book is interesting in that he starts living in the graveyard right like every and the ghosts actually aren't scary like that that they're his family which you know it kind of throws a trope upside down of like no they're actually the kind people versus like the humans are the scary people. Right. So how, like, can you pretty much use any setting in middle grade? Well,

think of it this way. You know, what's creepy to you and I is a different kind of creepy to a young person, you know, who's, again, just experiencing the world. So what's creepy to a kid? Maybe the scary basement at school, like the boiler room, a graveyard, maybe maybe a forest that feels like it's haunted, because there's little creatures walking around. So of the werewolf that's going to eat your face, and we're going to describe that we're going to say maybe he tiptoes with like, a red little basket, and he tiptoes around trees. And that's how he tries to scare people. You know, it's more simple. And going on, like what you're saying is, is I think that to adults, it's almost cheesy. You know, it has a cheesy aspect, like, oh, that's that's not really that scary. But if you look over at your, you 12 year old daughter's son, and they're going, Oh, no, that's awesome. That's exactly what you wanted to do. Or they're yelling, like, Get out of there. He's in the closet. Which is a completely

different kind of scary. Yeah, then then something like Stephen King would write. Right. It's simple. So we got to as writers, we have to we have to go back to simplicity and put ourselves in little people's shoes again. Yeah. You know, go back to my little nephew who runs around and having a great time looking like some scary villain having fun, though, you know, and that's part of it, too, because you can't in slasher movies. You know, you constantly have adult, right? So any kind of slasher movie, there's this constant fringe, constant fear. Right. And you wanna mix in your humor. So you can go into an adult one and you can find some humor into it. But with kids, like add the humor, don't constantly keep it like treacherous and overwhelming because they're never gonna be able to sleep ever again. So you add in these twists, you know, that they're going through that forest and a rock flew. Oh, no, wait. They look up and it could be scary, but it was an owl dropped a rock or something. You know, it's just little bits of like a mini terror, but but for that age group.

So that's interesting. You have to give them like relief. And it's almost like you're teaching them that the world can feel scary, but a lot of that isn't, is just regular.

Like, you know, it is scary when there's sounds outside, but if you open the curtains and see it's just the tree or it's just the owl, like it's, I guess we have to go back to that age and realize your world is starting to open and so everything new is scary. And so you just sort of have to like be part of that societal group that shows them little by little it, you can, you can confront it, right? Like the owl dropping the rock is like, that's going to make you jump, but you're okay.

You're okay. You're going to get through. You're going to push through and you know, going back to that concept of, of listening to yourself, listening to what you need in life without being told constantly what to do, which leads to no adults. You really can't have adults in middle grade. Again, these kids are, they're, they're trying to figure themselves out into the world and, and they need each other. They're, they're figuring out who they are, who their friends are, who are, who are they going to be when they grow up? And when you throw in adults in there that are going to save the day or, you know, constantly tell them what to do. Where's the part where the child that's reading that book learns? OK, let's see what they see every day in life of mom keeps telling me what to do, because the point is, when you open a book, you have this great imaginary world and you can open yourself up and you can feel really good and you can you can have empathy for other people, for feelings that maybe you didn't have. And when you throw in the parent, it just ruins everything. Right. You don't want to ruin everything with a parent finishing and fixing everything. It's

like, they

have to, it's that part of that writing and receiving is helping a kid acknowledge.

I can figure out my own problems. I can be a problem solver. And that's so important to be that problem solver all on their own. And

now you

throw in a scary ghost thing.

Yes. And you throw in the scary, but, but I think that's a good thing to remember, especially if you're starting out writing middle grade to not throw, cause you're most likely an adult by that point. And you're like, oh, but in the real world, an adult would come like, no, we're reading to not be in the real world.

That's exactly what you're trying to stay out of the real world. And, and I think with kid lit, what we're doing as writers is we're, we're, we're helping them expand. We're helping their minds open up to a whole different world. And how can you do that? If it looks, if it parallels what we have, what they have right now.

Okay. Okay. So how, how would you create the perfect monster? Is it, is there a perfect monster for, for middle grade? Are there things like you said, just to stay away from?

Well, you could have a slasher type guy like Michael Myers. You can absolutely have that Jack in in The graveyard book was a slasher guy. Yeah, she didn't read about the bud You didn't hear about you know The screams and that it was the boy trying to figure out how to stop this guy once he figures out he's being You know, he's after him. Okay, gotta figure it out. So so you can have really any kind at all I mean it could be an absolute psychopath path, but it's how you write it for that child to say, you know, it's, it's, he's not popping off, you know, baby heads or something, or, or maybe that baby doll heads, maybe that's what the bad guy does. He goes around and he pops off all the heads of all the dolls and the kids in the town.

Yeah. Why not? You know what? That sounds like a good story. That is kind of creepy. Okay, so it really comes down to, it can be anything from like an imaginary monster to a real witch that they can figure out to an actual slasher, but we're coming down to the description. It almost feels like more psychological than visual in the scare.

Absolutely, it would be it would be because if you if you write about you

know a tooth bleeding my seven -year -old nephew again I said hey there's blood on that knife he goes oh no no blood no blood that concept of blood freaked him out it can be the night that has fake blood in it you can say it's fake blood but when it comes to like if I say something that was real oh that was too scary. Okay, true blood if you add in like the smell of blood, you know, that iron smell and I don't know it turns my belly. I know I'm a horror person, but I don't like raw meat. That's

fearful to me. If anyone wants to freak out Rebecca write a story about a guy just dropping raw meat.

So doing that for my dogs, I would get that raw meat stuff. I'm like, I can't I'm sorry, guys, you cannot have this.

You can go hunt yourselves. Go yourselves.

Be the real dogs you are.

All right, so does that mean, then, that you kind of have to find a way to be around this age group in order to know kind of what is scary or just read the middle grade to make sure that you're not kind of going overboard? Or how would you tell writers to sort of make sure they're kind of staying within the boundaries of

that? I would say it would be a combination, right?

So you do have to understand how kids, their brains think. I don't recommend sitting at a playground and listening to children for hours on end because it might look a little creepy. So if you can't do that and, you know, it seems like it could be illegal, read. Okay. Read, read, read. Read the books, watch the movies. I'm going to have an article coming out of, you know, specifics of middle grade and horror. There's plenty of people that have stuff out there. I actually read R .L. Stein, you know, the Goosebumps guy. He actually wrote a how to write horror book for kids, so there's plenty of resources out there. But you don't really have to have an imagination.

Yeah. Cause goosebumps, wasn't it? I think that in, are you afraid of the dark? And like, I mean, it kind of went along the Scooby -Doo thing all the time. Like there was always a, an explanation or am I not remembering correctly? Like there, there always was an explanation. Which is awesome

because how many times we say, why did this person do this? So if you an antagonist that explains why they do that. Oh, then then you get understanding. You that the jack he had a reason at the end can't give it away. The demon dentist book I was talking about that the the angry witch to switch I think she was called she had a reason for doing all that she does and maybe something like I hate kids I want to scare kids or I want to take over the world with a big bag of tooth teeth. It could be something. Yeah, all about write your story. And even if it starts out gruesome, no matter what, you still have the plot line of the protagonist needs to do this. And how are they going to get there by the end? And because something was thrown at them, and now they have to they have to adjust. So

you know, with with jack, in the graveyard book, the boy bod, His name is nobody, but they call him Bod. He's learning about life. He doesn't have normal parents per se, but isn't that a great analogy of people maybe of kids that have divorced parents that they feel torn and they don't know where to go or, you know, think of different analogies of how that can bring out different emotions in a kid because Bod had nobody but dead people around him that he learned from. So how is he going to learn about the world? He explores the graveyard, why wouldn't you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's kind of the weird kid, right? Because he has dead people teaching him about the world. I mean, you can do some really fun things with middle grade fiction that you, like you say, you almost can't with adult fiction because adults will find it cheesy, even though we love reading the middle grade fiction.

Maybe some of us really need help understanding our feelings from when we were a kid now that we're adults. I

need to learn how to confront the world still.

I'm going to keep reading middle grade. And you know, it's pretty much one plot. That's what's great about kid lit. It's really one plot. So that one plot without all the little side subplots, it really gets, if you write this so your character is truly seeing emotions and how to move through the world, you're going to bring out so much in the character that the kids are going to be, oh, I love this guy. Some kids will be like, oh, I love the scary monster guy, because they can relate to it, because their world feels chaotic. You know, the bodies change and everything's crazy. So maybe they love the antagonist best, because they can almost like vicariously through them by causing trouble.

OK, yeah, they

won't do at home because then they'll get suspended and grounded. And, you know, they got to be good kids, but they can take their imaginary world to be. Oh, I mean, in Gremlins, Spike was my favorite character, not Gizmo. It was the bad guy. Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

That was causing trouble. But that's interesting. what you said is probably one of the fundamentals of middle grade is one plot line, not this under, not all these subplots. So that gets into more high school. So that's something very important to keep in mind as a writer. Like you don't, I mean, it's kind of a relief. You don't have to make any sub plots, you know, but if you are maybe just cut them because he doesn't also need to like have, I don't know, you don't need a million characters and you don't need a million subplots.

Keep it simple. Keep it simple, silly. You know, just going around that, just keep it. And that's really helpful too. One, I think it's really hard to write young people kid lit because it really takes us out of, we have to really leave our space and take ourselves away. But by keeping it simple, wow, you can have so much fun writing this whole plot line and all the different steps of what the antagonist is doing to send them back two steps so they can move forward a step and back two steps.

But that's life. That's the whole point. And because it's scary in some sense, you gotta add humor. So in the graveyard book, for instance, There is a section where he meets a real girl. He's a real boy, but he can, you know, he can live in the cemetery and kind of fade out, I think it's called. So he meets this girl. No one else can see, can see him, but this girl who's the same age. And she's like, Oh, mom, I met a friend. And, you know, mom saying, Oh, it's nice to have imaginary friend. And she goes back to the cemetery. I don't know why they visit cemetery all the time, but they didn't get into it. Um, she goes back to the cemetery and says, well, I guess you're my imaginary friend, but it's okay. I guess we all have imaginary friends. Like there's humor in that. Yeah. There's humor. There's a lot of humor that even, even an adult and, and young adult, you have to have that humor twist did not have, like we already talked about that constant anxiety.

Yes. Well, that's fun too. because you can look back on your times where as a kid, the adults would have some sort of dumb explanation for something. And you're like, that's totally wrong, but it's not worth arguing and getting in trouble. That adult right now. Wrong mom, okay.

Yeah, like he's a real kid, oh, whatever. But you know, adding in that humor, you kind of, as the middle grade reader, get to poke fun at adults and poke fun at the world, right? Like, cause you get that human, you get to be part of that joke. Right. Oh, I like that. But I think you also said something interesting in that the antagonist has to have a reason behind their stuff. Like that, I think that's very important for a book to go somewhere, to be successful.

Because I think sometimes we think the antagonists are just, we don't spend as much time developing them, maybe.

And they're the best.

I mean, honestly, it is weird because I'm trying to think there's so many times that we love the antagonist more. But it's because the writer actually developed them properly, right? And they're like, my favorite antagonist is somebody who's, who's very human, but like very flawed, but you can kind of see like the glimmer of hope in them. her. But then they're also just wreak chaos. And they just don't care about any three

witches and hocus pocus. You love them because they're funny, right? You got the one silly one and the other one that uses a vacuum to fly around because you couldn't find a broom. I mean, there's humor in that. And we need it. We need that humor. We need those flaws because, you know, oh, the Black River of Death.

I don't know

if you remember. So there's, you know, it was a street and, you know, the sisters grew up, were alive when there was no streets. They're like the Black River of Death, but that's fun. These antagonists, yes, they're trying to get their book back. They're trying to take over the world. There's two people and the kid

that's trying to fix it with the cat. And you have all these flaws. There's clearly flaws, you know, in each one of them. I mean, if I jump forward to like the Saw movies, personally, I have an issue with them, one, because I can't believe someone thought of that, how the craziness of Saw. But it took I think it was a fifth one that they finally explained who the antagonist was. I was like, finally, and why he's doing it. Right, right, right.

It took a lot of gruesome movies. And no, I do not recommend those for middle graders because those are... Or for adults, quite frankly. They're out there. They are gruesome. They're psychologically crazy.

Yes. And I almost think that that was a mistake for that. I feel like you could get more readers if you have, if it's almost clear what, like somehow you feel as a reader that you understand the antagonist, even if you have it completely wrong. Like with the graveyard book, I was like, I mean, there's humor in the fact that the slasher is named Jack because they're, you know, like that's not really their name. It's just the Jack of all trades, you know, like he's using all this humor with, you know, very intellectual because he's British again, you know. You feel very smart when you're reading it. But like, even if you get it wrong, like feeling like you're part of understanding the antagonist is part of the fun.

That is absolutely part of the fun. I do, I send out a creature of the month, every month at the end of the month.

Something probably people have known, probably some creatures that people don't know. You can use every single one of them, like a Bogart, a Bogeyman, a Screaming Banshee, all of these can, you know, and think about a Screaming Banshee for a second. it. They, we've, we've, we've depicted her as some crazy lady, which we can go into the social types of that some other time. But we depict her as some crazy lady who's screaming all the time that's that's wreaking havoc and saying, anybody who hears her is going to die. You can use that in adult as well as you can middle grade and adult. It's probably going to be bleeding eyeballs, you know, and when she screams, maybe she's she cries blood. That's what you can make that kind of gross. However, for middle grade, maybe she looks

really innocent during the day, and it isn't until she knows someone's going to die that she transforms. So then you have, you know, the protagonist is like, wait, why is this person adjust and change so you do get a different perspective of the antagonist yeah always a reason everybody's awesome and and just because let me go back for a second I'm losing I got excited villains aren't created villains are made so you can look at Darth Vader yeah he started out as his anti -anarchist And he thought he was doing really great in the whole world. I know we're switching genres for a second, but this popped in my head. He was living through this world, and he realized he had a gift, but everything, all these social, political things kept happening, kept hurting his family. His mom was killed, his wife was killed, and pretty soon he's saying, none of you are listening to me. and Now here comes Darth Vader the Joker the last Joker movie phenomenal No one's listening to me So in order to listen he kept to turn into something and all of a sudden people are paying attention This saw guy right was his name Sam or so. I don't know. That's trick or treater Something had to happen for them to say I'm gonna get you back. Yeah. Yeah Right. Jason doesn't like horny teenagers, which is a trope in horror, because he died. He drowned in a lake because teenagers were were humping over there by the trees. So

created something. Right.

It gives them that reason.

Yeah,

we don't. Yeah. So for anything, that's an interesting way to put it like how can almost how does your antagonist come out of the ashes of their normal life and transform into this and then I think that just is a different way that will give your antagonist depth right if you think of like how do you what has happened to sort of press this antagonist into becoming the person going out and strangling or murdering or

that's part of your character arc when you're building it or your world building when you're first starting the book is, you know, you're figuring out who are your characters, not about hair color, or if they wear glasses, no, but who are they on the inside? And what experiences in life have made them this person? So whether that's a 12 year old protagonist, or the slasher, dude, they all started as kids, and they all had experiences that did something with their brain, right? You and I could have grown up in the same, my brother and I, let me say, we grew up in the same household, but we're completely opposite people. Yeah, yeah. But why is that? Why was he treated different? What happened in his brain and his experiences that made him so different than my experiences and made me who I am? Right.

And

that's important in life, that's important in books, is to recognize the psychology of people. Yeah. To understand archetypes and how we all can merge together, how we can work together, or how some of us will never work together.

Yeah, yes, and giving the reasons to that.

So when you, this is kind of your niche. How do you help writers? You how does your coaching go with writers when, when you're helping them sort of develop this, I want to write a middle grade book and I kind of like horror and I kind of want to merge my passions with that. So what do you do as, as a book coach? I

would start out with no, I start out with nothing different than I would for a contemporary book with, without all the scary stuff. But honestly, I think contemporary books. Sometimes they're scarier than the horror books. You still got to create your world. You still got to create your setting. In a contemporary life, living in Los Angeles is going to be completely different than the setting of living in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Really different cultures, really different everything. So no matter whether you add the bad guys being scary or not, you still create that world, that setting, you still have to create, okay, who's it like we talked about who's the who is the protagonist? Who are they inside? What's their backstory, not that you're actually going to have to use it in your book. But maybe you use if you figure out what happened that made them this way, whether that's antagonist or the protagonist, what made them this way, that will help you develop that storyline of why they make certain choices. Okay, you know, you still have to have the arc of the character, you still have to have no, no, no adults allowed or keep them at a real minimum. So whether that's fantasy,

contemporary or horror, either way, you still have to develop your baseline and understand how one a child's mentality, and to you know, how to write short sentences, how to keep things really compact, because, man, you got to be smart to write this stuff. I'm telling you, because that structure, I mean, you something that we would talk about in a, in a huge, long, you know, our debate, how are you going to put that into a few sentences? Yeah, true. And every word is so has to be so precise and concise. Okay, what word are you choosing? So, so regardless of genre, either way, you still have to know your settings, your world buildings, your characters, your good guys, your bad guys, either way. Now let's have fun. And

now

let's move forward into, okay, so now why is this person bad? And what is it? What is the protagonist going to learn by defeating the antagonist, the monster? What are they going to learn about themselves?

And yeah, it sounds like just because it's middle grade does not mean that it's like, you don't spend as much time on the book. Like, it's not easier at all. But yeah, so like, if you're thinking you're just going to get rich quick by just turning out books for middle grade, you might, might need to think that through again.

You might need to do that. Yeah, we can talk about that another time. But yes, do your research. That is for sure.

Well, and I mean, kids, kids will DNF a book faster than you can, you know, quite frankly. So where you said that you were writing an article and you you talk about little goblins or monsters every month, where do people find you to see to look into this more with you?

My initials are rad. And I just think that's the coolest thing ever. So thanks, mom. Um, my, my, my company is called red notes, but coaching, so you can find me at red notes, book coaching .com. Uh, there's plenty of links in there that, that you can sign up for my newsletters. You can sign up for my creatures of the month. And I do love helping people pitch to agents. It's, I find it more fun to research for other people to find agents than to do it for myself. Cause I mean, yes,

we all, all right. We will have the, the link in the show notes below. Um, but otherwise if you guys are driving, it's R a D notes, bookcoaching .com. Right. That is correct. And

you know, one thing we didn't discuss cat that we really have to put an emphasis on is middle grade. It's not my favorite, but it has to have a happy ending. Ooh. Okay. Why is that? Um, you know, So I get we're going back to the child mentality that there's so many bad things happening in the world.

Things can feel really negative and it can really press down on your emotions, your psyche. So need they need a happy ending at the end, you know, monster dies or get sent back to the other another planet or however you want to do it. And then, yeah, and a little cheer at the end. So

we have

a happy ending for this age

group. So it kind of need the protagonist to get a win.

The protagonist has to have a win at the end. Yes.

All right. Oh, but before we go, I have a question for you. If you're going to write a series for kids books. Are you like cliffhangers are a big no no in adults. I don't know why, like, but what about kids books, do you have cliffhangers, or not really, I

would say the cliffhangers happen at the end of every chapter.

Oh, okay.

Okay. So, so if it ends with, um, you know, Susie grabbed a box of an open box of candy off the counter and she went to go get a piece of candy and, um, a finger was in there. And then the next chapter would be, she threw it on the ground. It was a

rubber finger

and Joey's in the bushes laughing or, you know, her brothers in the corner laughing.

So that's you

almost like cut that that action is the end of the scene and then you you start a new scene with kind of like that's curious. There are lots of rules to middle grade. Okay. Oh my goodness, I'm gonna have to learn more about this if I'm ever gonna write a middle grade. All right. So I think that you all should definitely go check out Rebecca's website because it sounds to me like there are just these really interesting ways that you organize your story that just makes it more interesting for kids that you wouldn't do it for adults.

And know what? A story is a story regardless.

Yeah. And those are things that you can, you can help people with. Absolutely. Yeah. You know,

writing for the different age groups could be a lot of fun. Next time we'll talk about young adult, really dive into that.

Yes.

Oh my gosh. Because young adult, then we're just going to go with like, I grew up with the scream movies. We should do a deep dive into scream and how it got boring. Actually,

I just watched a documentary on that.

You did not? A documentary on the movies?

It's it's was cut. It's called greatest fears. I think it is

It's like an AMC at like midnight on Fridays. I tape it or record it. I don't know. I'm I'm aging myself again We're aging No, it goes through like all the like what this one was just about all the tropes and they go into the screen tropes and and making fun of Don't do something stupid and go down the big hole, you know and you'll never come home or didn't you ever watch scary movies and they'll talk about it because it's part of the fun. Right, right.

It is part of the fun. But just like any other genre, we love our tropes. We love it when the girl goes deeper into the house and doesn't leave the house. You know, like we just love it because we're humans. I don't know. We just love the kind of that, those things, the same recognizable traits of a story. Right? Yeah,

right. And and that's, that's what makes us feel good to know what's going to happen. So that keeps us in story mode, not watching the nightly news. Yes. Which is scarier than any book I've ever written, or wrote, or listened to or read, whatever.

So there's no rhyme or reason. Thank you so much, Rebecca, for talking to us about this we will definitely have you back on to talk about middle school or high school and then adults and or other things as well. So at the moment it is still October so I want you guys to go check out radnotesbookcoaching .com especially if you want to get into middle grade or any grade horror. Thanks Rebecca. Thanks Kat, thanks for having me.