032- Understanding and Supporting Neurodivergent Children with Amanda Riley
Parenting the Intensity ·
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Transcript
SPEAKER_00
00:00:00
welcome to the podcast today we are cooking a series of four episodes that are more based on personal life experience from parents or from adults that were emotionally intense kids and today we're starting with a neurodivergent family so the guest that we are interviewing is neurodivergent and her two kids are too so she will be sharing all about neurodivergence their diagnosis history and why they wanted that diagnosis and what works for them in their everyday life. This guest is Amanda Riley. She combines her passion, lived experience, and 20 plus years of career in change and engagement to raise awareness and acceptance of neurodiversity with individual teams and businesses. Eight years ago, her daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. Then five years ago, she was diagnosed. And finally, her son was also recently diagnosed with what in their family, they call the three A's anxiety, ADHD, and autism. This kicked off a life changing intense periods of self discovery for her, which included hyper focusing on neurodiversity and anxiety research for the past seven years, wanting to help create a future where our two neurodivergent children can thrive fuels her passion. So let's welcome Amanda over on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00
00:01:38
Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solutions and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, deep down, you know what they need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on harder days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. Do you read all the things, listen to all the things, take all the courses and you know a lot of things about parenting but you struggle to actually apply them in your real life? Then you're in luck. I just started the Parenting the Intensity community, which is a monthly group support for parents of emotionally intense kids and the goal is exactly that to take all the information you learn from the podcast and from all the other sources and adapt them so that it works for your child and your family your reality because things can work but not always the same way for everybody so the same thing might need to be adapted to work for you and sometimes it's hard to sort
SPEAKER_00
00:03:08
through everything to choose the right things so that you can really enjoy your life and your kids, not always being afraid of the next outburst. You can join by clicking on the link in the show notes or on the website. So welcome Amanda, really glad to have you here on the podcast. One of the many reasons kids are emotionally intense can be that they are neurodivergent. So we'll talk all about that. And I'm really glad to have you on for that today.
SPEAKER_02
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Thank you. Thank you. I'm very excited. This is one of my favorite topics. So I will try to keep my answers succinct. That's okay.
SPEAKER_00
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Great. Great, and can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more of why you do what you do?
SPEAKER_02
00:04:06
Yeah, so my name's Amanda. I'm based in Victoria, Australia.
SPEAKER_02
00:04:12
I run a little business called Thriving with Neurodiversity and the purpose behind it is to raise awareness and acceptance of neurodiversity, neurodivergent brains and how unique and awesome they can be within the workplace. So that's my kind of area of focus rather than education or children. Cause that's, I don't know a lot about that. So I stick to my areas and I am neurodiverse myself. I have ADHD and I have two children, both with ADHD and one with autism. So my driver and my passion behind what I do is to create that future for them where they don't have to feel ashamed or they don't have to feel that they have to mask or hide who they really are. And just trying to flip that negative narrative that frames the experience of a lot of neurodivergent people. So that's really what drives me and I just, I'm very passionate about it.
SPEAKER_00
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Yay. We can hear it in your voice.
SPEAKER_00
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Can you explain a little bit more of what neurodiversity and neuroleverage its means for those who are not really familiar with those terms?
SPEAKER_02
00:05:25
Yeah, yeah. There is what's been called a movement, I guess, and I won't go into the history of it all because that's when I forget dates and stuff. So I'm just going to keep it broad. That neurodiversity came out probably about 10, 20 years ago as a word to describe people with unique and different brains. And the way that the terminology came around is that every person in the world has a different brain. So every person in the world is neurodiverse. So trying to broaden the terminology to include more people so there's less of that differences and there's less of that us and them. So that's where the term neurodiversity kind of comes from and neurodivergent is when someone's brain is wired differently enough that they could be or have been diagnosed with neurodevelopmental disorder, condition, disability, it depends on your preference and language,
SPEAKER_02
00:06:25
of ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dysgraphia, et cetera. Some people do broaden that term to include those under the trauma or PTSD, anxiety, et cetera, model as well, because that does affect how the brain works and the wiring of the brain, et cetera, too. So the neurodiversity is everybody basically, and neurodivergent is that smaller group, about one in five actually they're saying now,
SPEAKER_02
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the statistics are, whose brains are different and unique enough that they could be given a diagnosis of one of the neurodivergent conditions.
SPEAKER_00
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Okay, so yeah, and I think some are really well known, like autism or ADHD or dyslexia, and some are less well known, definitely that are less common and less talked about. But yeah, there's many different ones for sure.
SPEAKER_02
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Yes, yeah, there's dyscalculia and dysgraphia, and there's quite a bit, they're all dis, you know,
SPEAKER_01
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because
SPEAKER_02
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they're all negative in some way, but yes, few under the umbrella,
SPEAKER_01
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but yes,
SPEAKER_02
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they
SPEAKER_00
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do
SPEAKER_02
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make the top three, I guess.
SPEAKER_00
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And I love what you're saying, they're all negative, mostly I would say, maybe not, but even autism, it's all a diagnosis of something negative, like a problem, basically. Yes, yes. It's like there's a movement and there's like, people want to switch that a little bit, but it's not there yet, so I'm guessing since you're really positive on that. Yeah, that's
SPEAKER_02
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right. I'm trying to get it there. But just briefly on it, it makes
SPEAKER_00
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to
SPEAKER_02
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to get the diagnosis, you do have to focus on the negative and how
SPEAKER_00
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it
SPEAKER_02
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disables your life and how the condition has impacted your life and how it's made you worse at things or it's made you anxious or it's just made you, you know, not be as good as you can. So to get that diagnosis and the label, you have to kind of focus on the negative because that's when, and in Australia, that's, you know, my area, that's when your legal rights kick in and that's when you get the support at school and that's when you possibly get government funding, et cetera. So you kind of have to go through that process first if you, to get that support. But then it's then time to try and flip it a little bit
SPEAKER_02
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and especially with kids and even adults, late adults diagnosed late in life, you know, it's time to focus on some of the positives and the strengths and, and even out the language that we use rather than, you disorders and deficits.
SPEAKER_00
00:09:10
Yeah, yeah, because it makes it look like just negative when it comes with those terms of deficit and disorder. But also, as you said, it's important to recognize that in our society, sometimes it is a deficit based on how things are organized, because cool are not made for neurodivergent kids. Oh, that's a whole nother podcast.
SPEAKER_00
00:09:37
But yeah, I if, and I think that's the definition also for disability is based on anyway, here, the definition of disability is based on a social setting. And so if in your society, things are not adapted for you, you are disabled. It's not the person who's disabled, it's the person in their environment. If you adapt the environment, the person is less disabled or not disabled at all, depending on a lot of factors.
SPEAKER_02
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The
SPEAKER_00
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same as having like, sidewalk that allow for wheelchair, like gave less more mobility to people in wheelchair. it's a classic example. And, and I think it's interesting also, because what you mentioned, like in Australia, that's how it's, it's done. And I think it's done mainly that way everywhere,
SPEAKER_00
00:10:33
like you need to focus on negative aspects to get the diagnosis and the support. But it's also different a little bit from places to places, I find the way they diagnose and the way they've seen, but in general, that's it. And you mentioned being like that late diagnosis as adults, and I've heard a lot of people being diagnosed with their kids were diagnosed. Yes. Is that your story? Yes. Yes. And how was it for you?
SPEAKER_02
00:11:07
Well, my daughter was diagnosed probably seven years ago with ADHD. And at that time, we were, we were that stereotype family of only boys with hyperactivity have ADHD, we knew nothing about it, absolutely nothing. So that started for me in a bit of a hyper focus. And I intensely researched ADHD for about 18 months. And I was just fascinated by the brain and fascinated by how it worked. And, and then that's when all the aha moments for my own life kind of came in. And so I think about 18 months or two years later, I then was diagnosed with ADHD. And by that time also social anxiety and generalized anxiety and all the things that can come along with it, especially with late diagnoses.
SPEAKER_02
00:12:01
And that I explained it as the best slash most upsetting kind of day of my life kind of thing. I very dramatic at the time because it was such a revelation for me. In hindsight, I like, okay, ease off on the language. But it was just amazing for the first, I was 45. So for the first time in my life, I finally began to understand myself. I finally felt that I belonged somewhere. Like to me, the label meant everything because it gave me that clarity. And it gave me that, oh, my God, I'm not what all the negative things I've thought about myself ever. So it, it was just, it was an eye opener. And it was just, yeah, it was, it was amazing. It's the best thing that you know, my life since then, has changed dramatically because of that diagnosis.
SPEAKER_00
00:12:59
Yeah, because it often comes with negative comments from people around and negative of comments that we integrate as like, we know it's the same for every children, children will integrate what they hear about them as their own inner dialogue. So and neurodivergent kids often hear more negative comments than others.
SPEAKER_02
00:13:20
It's also that sense, you know, that you're different. Like I always knew I was different. But I didn't know how or why. And so I never spoke to anybody about that. Not even my husband. It just I just had that constant sense of being different and not fitting in was just always there. So getting for me again, that diagnosis was just like, Yep, okay, now I can start to make sense of everything. So it's been good. I highly recommend. Seeking one, I recommend just at least looking
SPEAKER_02
00:13:50
into it. Because yeah, it's you don't have to tell me what I don't want. You don't have to. I'm very open about it, of course. But it can be a private thing. It doesn't mean you have to go around telling everyone it's just but just for yourself, if you can start to look into it.
SPEAKER_00
00:14:05
And think that's interesting because lots of parents are afraid of diagnosis. Like, and I did an episode on that subject, but I think it's something that often people will prefer the denial of not knowing because the diagnosis makes it permanent. But it's really important what you're saying. Yeah, it also help us understand. And from a parent point of view, it helped us understand our kids.
SPEAKER_02
00:14:34
Oh, definitely. I can support my kids so much better now, because I know that I'm similar to them now. And it's been proven that I'm similar to them, so I can support them better because I understand. Intrinsically, I can understand. If they're having a meltdown, I can pretty much guess why. So not
SPEAKER_01
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all
SPEAKER_00
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the time.
SPEAKER_02
00:14:56
They're
SPEAKER_00
00:14:57
still kids. Sometimes,
SPEAKER_02
00:14:58
yeah, they're still kids. Sometimes there's no reason.
SPEAKER_00
00:15:01
Yeah, or there's no reason that we can understand at all. That makes no sense for us as adults. Yes, yes,
SPEAKER_02
00:15:07
there's definitely a reason for them,
SPEAKER_00
00:15:08
yeah. Yeah, yeah, and I, and so like, even if the diagnosis is the same, it's still two different persons, so it makes sense that sometimes. It
SPEAKER_02
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it is, yeah. We definitely have our own unique traits, but there's some, of course, being the whole genetic component of it that's a very similar term, yeah.
SPEAKER_00
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Yeah, that's very interesting.
SPEAKER_00
00:15:31
And as you said, you can like understand them better and deal with tantrum better. And of the thing I always say is that with emotionally intense kid, neurodivergent kids, all, basically all emotionally intense kids, they're in general, they're general, what I call the general parenting advice, with like air quotes, they don't really work with those kids. Did you find that to be true or was your experience different? Oh
SPEAKER_02
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no, we did.
SPEAKER_00
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Especially
SPEAKER_02
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I think with,
SPEAKER_00
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before
SPEAKER_02
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my daughter was diagnosed, she would have a lot of emotional intensity, she'd have a lot of night terrors associated with the fact that she got overtired and just her brain couldn't shut down at night and just all of these things, which, of course, no one could really help explain to us but at the time, but my husband is English, and he's a wonderful
SPEAKER_02
00:16:28
dad, he's a bit of an old school dad. So he's a bit of a, you know, he grew up with a, you listen to your parents, you respect authority, blah, blah, blah. So the his approach was just it just hit walls because you have a child that is not the behavior you're seeing is not caused by what you thought. So exit and you're reacting to what you think happened. And it's never that simple with neurodiverse kids. But also, if they have a bit of oppositional defiance, or if they have anxiety and stuff as well, then the command and control approach just doesn't work and it actually makes it worse. Whereas myself, before I was diagnosed, I would just end up in pure frustration and sometimes storm out in tears because I wasn't parenting well and what's going on. And, you know, it was, we've had many intense, we still have intense times. We've had many intense times. And lockdown was just awful for us, because I had two kids, only one diagnosed that stage that just could not function doing schooling online and could not find the motivation could not find the energy. And it was just and my husband and I were trying to be the teachers and it was just like, not
SPEAKER_01
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working.
SPEAKER_02
00:18:00
I think my poor son is only now kind of caught up to his age appropriate education levels because of all of that. So know, so no, it's the traditional. I guess that's, that's what we knew traditional parenting has, you know, we, that was, you know, the, the, the parent, you respect the parent, the parent is right, to a certain extent, but that doesn't work. You've got to understand the brain and you've got to understand your child so much more, even when you're a divergent, and a lot more effort has to go into your part to drop your biases, drop your automatic responses, and just have the energy and patience to pause and try and understand what's going on when your kid's having a massive, sometimes physical meltdown. So it's not, it's very different. And parents who don't have neurodivergent kids will just look at you sometimes and go, hmm, what?
SPEAKER_00
00:19:00
Just don't get it.
SPEAKER_02
00:19:03
Which is probably why we now find ourselves
SPEAKER_02
00:19:06
with a lot of friends who are neurodivergent themselves or have neurodivergent kids, because they get it. They're the ones that get it,
SPEAKER_01
00:19:13
you know? Whereas
SPEAKER_02
00:19:14
other people don't get it they're just like, why isn't he towing the line? Why is he? Why isn't he behaving? You all the other kids are sitting eating? Why? It's just like, oh, it's just not worth it.
SPEAKER_00
00:19:26
Yeah. And then you feel judged as a parent. And
SPEAKER_02
00:19:29
and it's just it's just not worth it's not healthy for your kid. It's not healthy for you. So you just you automatically kind of head towards those that get it and make you feel welcome and relaxed. And so I highly recommend if you have emotionally intense kids, find other parents who have emotionally intense kids and hang out with them.
SPEAKER_00
00:19:49
Yeah, yes. You won't feel judged because they will understand what you're going through.
SPEAKER_02
00:19:56
It's so important.
SPEAKER_00
00:19:58
Yeah, definitely, definitely changed a lot of things. And I would say, I was talking with people when I decided to use those words emotionally intense. And since I've been using it, I can tell you instantly if someone has one of those kids or not, just by the way they react to the word, like if they react in some way, automatically, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, okay, you have one of those. And if they are like, what does that mean? I'm like, okay, you just don't get it. You don't have one of those kids. It really describes it well, I think.
SPEAKER_02
00:20:35
Yes,
SPEAKER_02
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yes, because, um, you, every, everybody will say, Oh, yes, my kid hates getting off his iPad. And well,
SPEAKER_01
00:20:44
yeah, you know,
SPEAKER_02
00:20:45
we'll have a tantrum over and that will last for a couple of minutes, then they'll move on. Right? If you haven't emotionally kid, as I was explaining to you why I was late to this podcast, I failed to tell my son that I was doing this podcast. So bedroom is next to my office. And I didn't want him in there gaming because he would, you know, be loud. So I gave him an hour warning, which is my fault. And he rightly told me it was my fault. Not rightly, but you know, in his words, my fault, that he couldn't game during that time and blah, blah, blah. And that just led to 15 minutes of shouting and yelling and just not physical this time,
SPEAKER_02
00:21:33
but sometimes it can be depending on how his day is going and stuff and like, so they're not the same. You can't go all your mind does that because no, your kid does not do that.
SPEAKER_00
00:21:42
No, and if if you try to talk them out of that, it just doesn't work at all or makes it worse. Yeah. And if you're like next time I'm gonna take your console or your iPad or I'm not to give it to you, it just makes it even worse.
SPEAKER_02
00:21:55
Yes, yes, but we still say it we still because you can't in the heat of the moment, you just kind of go right, I'm taking your Xbox. Yeah, we know is just a fuse for the bomb, you know, but in heat of it, you just sometimes you forget yourself and it's just like, so it's it's not perfect. But you know, we definitely know how to manage a bit better now than we used to.
SPEAKER_00
00:22:19
Yeah, and I would like to know more like I love when parents share what works for them, because it can inspire other parents. What was, what's working for you? Or at work? Because sometimes it changes.
SPEAKER_02
00:22:31
It does, it does change. I mean, what used to work with my daughter is now changing, because she's now 13, nearly 14, and hormones have come into it. And yeah, it's
SPEAKER_00
00:22:41
another thing.
SPEAKER_02
00:22:42
It's a whole nother thing. So I think it took, it took us a little while to understand that, especially for my husband, who's not neurodiverse, he's the only one in the family who's like normal,
SPEAKER_01
00:22:59
use
SPEAKER_02
00:22:59
that with air quotes.
SPEAKER_00
00:23:02
Who is?
SPEAKER_02
00:23:05
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02
00:23:05
for him, it took him a lot longer, because it's neurodiversity and neurodivergence is known as an invisible disability, because you can't see it.
SPEAKER_01
00:23:14
Right?
SPEAKER_02
00:23:14
It's all in the brain. It's not like a physical disability, which you can see when you first look at a person, it's, it's invisible. So it's, unless you experience it, it's easy to forget that that person is different than that person, brain and that, you know, so it took him a while to kind of get his head around that. And so we both spent time learning about ADHD and learning about autism and learning about anxiety. And just trying to understand certain triggers of our kids. And it was a lot of work on our part. A lot of work on my part first, and then me sending him links to articles and going, have you read this? Have you read this?
SPEAKER_00
00:23:59
Yeah, getting the other parent on board is another story.
SPEAKER_02
00:24:02
Oh, yeah. It's taken a few years. But I think, as an aside, what helped bring him on board was me explaining to him that he is a unique role in our family and in a very important role in the fact that he is the one that can step back and just help us come out of some of these neurodivergent emotional areas that we've gone into. And he works really well with me to help bring me back. Sometimes when I get too intensely involved, especially with my daughter, in an argument or something, and he'll very rightly call it out and just go, walk away, walk away, walk away. So he's got a very important role to play. And I think identifying that for him was quite key in us being able to work together. Because I get the neurodivergent side, but he also knows what triggers me. And it's hard, but we think we're finally making steps. So it's understanding the kids, it's understanding what their triggers are, and it's just learning, trying to learn to pause. So my daughter has a meltdown, just try and not engage her on it, because she wants to engage, she's looking
SPEAKER_01
00:25:26
for that
SPEAKER_02
00:25:26
dopamine, she's looking
SPEAKER_01
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for
SPEAKER_02
00:25:28
that, she needs someone to be intense back with her. So
SPEAKER_00
00:25:33
I
SPEAKER_00
00:25:34
can totally relate that. I have one of those here.
SPEAKER_02
00:25:38
So
SPEAKER_02
00:25:39
what I'm going to go on all different tangents because there's so much involved. It's not a simple answer.
SPEAKER_00
00:25:44
No.
SPEAKER_02
00:25:45
So I'll just use my daughter as an example. So if she is seeking an argument or seeking somebody to just bounce off because she's had a bad day or she's had an argument with a friend or there's the reasons behind it are generally emotions that she does not know how to manage or talk about. So I know that that's kind of where it's coming from. And it is quite hard for a parent to step back and kind of go, okay, there is reasons behind this. She's not swearing at me because she wants to, because she's just mean and awful.
SPEAKER_02
00:26:27
She's doing it because she doesn't know how to articulate what's going on in there. So, both our kids react to physical stimulation quite well. So we've got quite a big hallway. And so we get a ball and I go, right, throw a ball. come on, let's go throw a ball. And sometimes I, there's softballs, sometimes I have to throw it at a few times and it hits her for it and suddenly pick it up and throw it back. And I went, okay, I've got you now. And then we start throwing that that kind of breaks it down.
SPEAKER_01
00:26:53
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
00:26:54
A son's a bit different. He likes he needs that physical wrestling kind of pushing thing. And that helps him kind of get out of it. So we kind of break it down. And then And when she's ready, I'll go in and I'll talk to her and go, okay, so what happened today or where did this come from, or blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_02
00:27:15
And just that level of understanding I can give her has helped her open up so much. She sees a therapist at the moment and she mentioned to the therapist that I was the most useful tool in her anxiety toolbox. I think the words were, I was the biggest tool in her. We'll take it. Yeah, you take it. So it's being able to treat her as a little bit more of an equal and just understanding, and it has opened her up so much more because she knows that I get her. She knows that she can trust me and it's taken years to get to that point, but I need to summarize that for you, but for the moment, we'll just leave it there.
SPEAKER_00
00:28:15
Yeah, and I think that's very important and interesting because there's a lot there that could be explained by an OT and a professional therapist, like, because everything you're explaining, there's a lot of like interception, a lot of deep pressure, a lot of like all of those things that are regulating the nervous system in so many interesting ways. And then there's also that aspect of co -regulation of you being able to stay calm even if she's like getting out and then she can regulate out of your, your regulation, basically, and adding that and also something that is so important for every children, but especially tweens and teenagers, to have that open line of conversation with their parents. And it's so often not the case. My older ones are my older one is 15. And I can tell you that lots of his friends don't have that with their their parents, it's kind of rare. And think it kind of forces us when we have challenging kids to learn to have that open line of conversation, which is very, very precious when they get to the teen years. It it is. I we kind of having a try or run when they're little of that. I like how
SPEAKER_02
00:29:44
you've given it that silver lining, because you're right, it is important. I it's really hard, you have really hard days. So able to find that silver lining, I guess, is yeah, is very important. And that kind of, it kind of keeps you keeps you going. And you know, so when yes, when Poppy, when my daughter, everyone knows her, that knows me, it doesn't When my daughter told her therapist that, you know, there was that moment where I went, oh, something's working that, you know, I'm the biggest tool in her toolbox. Something's working. And then I realised that, wow, there's so much more we need to do to support her because she wasn't relying on herself at all. She didn't have any skills.
SPEAKER_02
00:30:32
She was completely relying on me to help calm her down. And I just went, good to know because now the hard work begins of giving her skills.
SPEAKER_00
00:30:41
But still, I would say it's the first step that she, she, she adds something to help regulate it. If it's you, and she recognized it, which is huge. Yeah, that was still the first steps to getting there. And like, we, we, we often need want to be there. And I'm just saying like, I'm like, okay, now they need, they need to find ways to regulate themself when I'm not there. And I would say like, my four year old needs me to older when she's dysregulated. And sometimes, like, this summer, we were in the car, and she was completely dysregulated and crying in her backseat. And I was like, I cannot do anything, I'm driving. Like, something I cannot do anything. And she was not able to, I had to stop and, like, older for like 15 minutes so she could calm down because it was getting impossible. And I have also an autistic child who was completely getting overwhelmed by the noise.
SPEAKER_02
00:31:44
Oh, my Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00
00:31:47
All of them together, like you need to do something, you know. So it's it's all of those things that definitely are really important for them to develop how to do it themselves, because sometimes you're not there. But also, I think it's the first step, if they can do it with you.
SPEAKER_02
00:32:08
The recognition is a key thing, because we've tried for years, both of us to help them with their anxiety. And they didn't, they weren't old enough to understand the concept of anxiety. And even though you know, you have the books, which try and explain it in kids terms, and all this kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00
00:32:24
It's abstract. It's really abstract. It
SPEAKER_02
00:32:27
is. And both of mine have a little bit of oppositional defiance as well. So it's just like, I'm not like that. I don't need to do that. That's not me. You
SPEAKER_00
00:32:36
Yeah. Yeah. Get that too. Yeah, it's definitely complicated, for sure. And I think kids in general don't have really great insight in themselves. Yeah, like it's not the strength of kids in general. Neurodivers, it's, yeah, it's often even worse, because their interoception is often one of the things that is impacted, like their ability to understand their inner life, their feelings, and their is even worse in general than kids are neurotypical. So I think it's even more difficult to have them reflect on things like, I have anxiety.
SPEAKER_02
00:33:24
Yeah, now it is, it is. Yeah, it's, yeah.
SPEAKER_00
00:33:28
It's really complicated for sure. Yeah. Is there any other example that you have that works or used to work for your, your family?
SPEAKER_02
00:33:42
I
SPEAKER_02
00:33:42
think well it's an interesting one with my daughter at the moment with we're going through a lot of school refusal with her at the moment and understanding and learning more and more that she has a lot more sensory challenges than we realized. So and this is at the moment the way my business is set up is that I work from home a lot so I'm at home a lot with her and And sometimes I think I'm too available. Does that make sense that I'm not giving her enough space to find things out for herself or even to fail herself? Because she's missed so much schooling and so much stuff that I'm just so, I guess, rightly concerned about where her education is going, et cetera. So I guess the thing for me is trying to find that balance of she has ADHD, she has anxiety, she may well have autism as well. We're looking into that. So that means her maturity is a bit less in the way she sees things. I think it's two or three year gap behind in regards to the maturity. How much of it is her ADHD? How much of it is her just being a belligerent teenager? How much of it is actually the school doesn't get her and just trying to find that balance. So think the key thing that I'm trying to do now is to step back a little bit and let her try and work that out as well. And see and having a therapist involved now has been is brilliant for her because she gets that impartial expert helping her see some of her behaviors and responses in a different light to how I might or the school might. The is amazing but they don't get it. They don't get the full. I mean they've set up a special, she's in year eight over here so that's second year high school and she's in a special class where they pull together a class of all the kids who don't seem to be functioning well in the normal school structure. So you know, they're trying things they've been working really hard. But the teachers are just so stretched, there's not enough teachers. And so knowledge of anxiety, the knowledge of ADHD, or any of the neurodiversity
SPEAKER_00
00:36:05
is there's not
SPEAKER_02
00:36:07
training. No, they're not. They're not. So I think that the key yet the key thing that we're trying to I'm trying now is to take that step back and let the school take more of a lead. And I've made that clear with them about when And I want them to contact me now.
SPEAKER_02
00:36:24
And there's now a bigger gap and with the therapist starting to help her see and understand some of her behaviors and responses. So I had to kind of get those in place first, before I could spread them out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
00:36:39
Yeah. It's a process for sure.
SPEAKER_02
00:36:42
Yeah. So I'm now taking a step back. So I'm not as available for all of those little things because I was there all the time. So I think that's, especially now she's 13, nearly 14, that's a really key thing that has to happen. So still in the early stages of this, but it seems to be working a little bit. And think I'll keep an eye on it, of course, but I think it will be the best kind of thing is like learning when to help and then learning when to step back. And that's kind of what I teach myself at the moment. I can't fix everything. I don't want to fix everything, you know, my fast ADHD brain. I'm like, I can do that and that, and and that, and that, and that. So I get more involved than I probably need to or should. So it's a big learning curve for me to kind of step back and just see what happens.
SPEAKER_00
00:37:35
I think it's interesting because you said, like,
SPEAKER_00
00:37:38
you talk about the therapist and the special class at school. I think it's also key that there's other people that can do the work, like they're even if it's not perfect, they're there, there, she has a net, like she's not, you're not just leaving her on herself. You've built what we like often we say use scaffolding around neurodivergentives. So you build a scaffolding that includes other people. And now you're removing your part of bit as a tiny bit slowly, one step at a time.
SPEAKER_02
00:38:11
Yeah, because she needs to be able to trust in others that they will help her. That's a big thing for her. So having that scaffolding and because there are things that can support her at school and her therapist is awesome, and she loves it. So yeah, it's just taking that it's I think it's more for me now to realize that I've got to kind of, you know, stop trying
SPEAKER_00
00:38:35
to control everything. Yeah, and I think that's also something that's natural when you have kids that are a bit different, you're more involved in their life, you have to advocate for them, you have to be that parent at school who's always calling, always like behind and asking for things. And so I think it's normal that the like, at 13, in general, it's like the, it's the it's caught, like, you you've taken that step back normally, but with neurodivergent kids can take a little longer. And as you said, briefly, they're often three years behind in their emotional development. So they, they 13, but in fact, they're 10 in their emotional development, but they are surrounded by people who are 13. I feel in those years, it gets even more obvious that they are lagging behind a little bit in
SPEAKER_00
00:39:29
their emotional development, because they've changed a lot.
SPEAKER_02
00:39:34
On that point, we were when we got my daughter's diagnosis, she was in grade two, so she was eight. We were open with her from the start about, you have a different brain. And as I learned stuff, I you know, teach her stuff and cause she put everything down to the fact that she couldn't hear properly cause she knew she was missing things. And she'd also started to self -manage by sitting at the front of the class and all that kind of stuff, because she knew she couldn't hear things properly cause as far as she was concerned, cause she kept missing stuff. And so we were quite open with it, with her, Even though, you know, three years later, she was still going,
SPEAKER_01
00:40:18
what does
SPEAKER_02
00:40:18
ADHD stand for again?
SPEAKER_00
00:40:21
It's just like the little things. Yeah. The little things doesn't mean to understand or to listen.
SPEAKER_02
00:40:27
No, no, no. God, no. It doesn't mean she like sat there and went, oh, yes, that makes sense. Yes. Yes. No, that doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_02
00:40:33
But enough got through at times that she became quite open about it herself. So she talked about it and, you know, she tells all her teachers and she's becoming a bit self -conscious now because of the age, but because she was quite open about it, she now has a small but strong group of friends who are exactly like her.
SPEAKER_01
00:40:57
So they
SPEAKER_02
00:40:58
are all different in some way. They're all unique in some way. Their brains work differently. And so they've kind of all found each other because, and I do think it is because she took that step of being open and honest to herself, she now has a group around her. So she's starting to learn about those that won't treat her nicely or won't treat her well. And that she can be herself a lot more with this small group that she's got. And they all can be, because they've
SPEAKER_01
00:41:30
all got their own
SPEAKER_02
00:41:30
things. So I
SPEAKER_00
00:41:32
think that was
SPEAKER_02
00:41:33
kind of giving her that knowledge and that kind of choice, I guess, was quite important.
SPEAKER_02
00:41:40
It's otherwise you have a kid at school that just tries to fit in like I did and you do all the things to fit in and you never know where you fit in and you just copy and you mask and you kind of forget who you are because you want to be and look like that cool kid or actually that kid or that kid or actually not sure which kid but it's not you yeah yeah you can any kid but it's
SPEAKER_01
00:42:02
not you because
SPEAKER_02
00:42:02
you don't know that you're different be not sure why so you're just going to copy everyone around you and
SPEAKER_00
00:42:07
if you
SPEAKER_02
00:42:08
fall into the group, then
SPEAKER_01
00:42:09
you know, that's
SPEAKER_00
00:42:10
not good. No, and I think that's why your work is so important. And before we close, I just want to touch on what you said about the fact that she thought she couldn't hear properly. Yes, I find it really interesting because often we don't talk about or like to our kids about diagnosis and things like that, because we're afraid to hurt them in some way, but they know something is wrong. And will make up something to explain it. And so So that's exactly a super great example that you gave. She taught it was a nearing problem.
SPEAKER_02
00:42:42
And if you don't, if you don't seek a diagnosis and get, get the official label, others will label them. They're the naughty kid, the hyperactive kid, they're the kid that's off with the fairies. They're the one that can't study that they will get labels from other people. Yeah. Because
SPEAKER_00
00:42:59
you know,
SPEAKER_02
00:42:59
if they're different, then they will get a label and it will not be a positive one. So I guess that's another reason I'm quite a strong supporter or an advocate for at least
SPEAKER_02
00:43:10
seeking a diagnosis. So at least have the choice and the power to do what you want with it, rather than still just let your kid sit there in the unknown, because they do know, they do know they are different. They're super observant, they know that they're different. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00
00:43:28
it's just that they don't know why and how and what's going on and yeah, a bit like the classic parents are getting separated and kids are thinking it's their fault if you don't explain it to them, they will still think that it's the same for diagnosis. If you don't explain to the kids what's happening, they will explain it themselves. And if they get a lot of negative comments about themselves, they will explain it with that. They will think they are bad. They will think they cannot behave. they will think they're distracted and like cannot study and because they were told that again and again and again.
SPEAKER_02
00:44:02
In developmental years they copy the language around them.
SPEAKER_02
00:44:07
And
SPEAKER_01
00:44:07
that's
SPEAKER_02
00:44:08
that shape their perception of themselves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
00:44:11
Yeah. So yeah, it's very important to do like the work you do to raise awareness so that people are more aware of those things. Is there anything we didn't touch on that you wanted to share today?
SPEAKER_02
00:44:25
No, I don't think so. I can't think of anything right now.
SPEAKER_00
00:44:29
Once
SPEAKER_02
00:44:29
it's finished, I'll go, Oh, I should have said that.
SPEAKER_00
00:44:33
If there's lots of things we can do a sequel later. Is there any I'm sure. Is there any resource that was helpful for you or is helpful for you that you would like to share with the community?
SPEAKER_02
00:44:51
Yeah, definitely. When I first started research, I looked everywhere. But I think attitude .org or AttitudeMag. It's AttitudeMag is an amazing resource for ADHD, but it also links into the comorbidities of dyslexia and anxiety and all
SPEAKER_02
00:45:14
these things as well.
SPEAKER_00
00:45:15
So it's not just pure, it
SPEAKER_02
00:45:16
just it. And it covers the amount of resource, and effort and time that goes into all of their articles, there's every single topic you can want. And it's all data driven and research driven, but written in a way that's easy to understand. And they have their research papers, or they have their short articles, and they have a whole or they have videos. So they're, they've worked well to cater for the different brains. True.
SPEAKER_00
00:45:41
I've never even realized that, but that's true. They don't know who their public is.
SPEAKER_02
00:45:47
Yes. Yes. Although their podcasts usually always hit an hour and that's the only thing I don't get.
SPEAKER_00
00:45:52
Yeah, that's true. More than an hour often. That's why I'm trying to keep mine shorter,
SPEAKER_00
00:45:57
but it's hard.
SPEAKER_02
00:45:59
It is. It is. It's hard. And then from an autism perspective, we found a chap called Tony Atwood, who once again, it's more of the old school Asperger's end. So of the, you know, I'm not gonna, the whole labels thing about high functioning, et cetera, but it's more of that Asperger's end. And
SPEAKER_00
00:46:20
I'm not
SPEAKER_02
00:46:21
sure if it's the same where you are, but over here when it's diagnosed, you're given a level one, two or three. Yeah, it's the same here.
SPEAKER_02
00:46:30
He focuses more on that level one end because that's where our son sits. So that's what I know about that. But he, once again, explains things and he does it so well and in plain English and simple terms. And really good, that was Tony Atwood, he's really good at helping explain the differences and why it happens, because autism is very different in some areas. There's a lot of overlap, but autism is quite different to ADHD, the way the brain works. So it was very interesting for us to be able to hear it in those simple terms and read it in those simple terms.
SPEAKER_00
00:47:08
So he was really good too. You a little window in the brain of a
SPEAKER_00
00:47:12
child that you might have trouble understanding otherwise.
SPEAKER_02
00:47:15
Yeah. And then you can educate everyone around you.
SPEAKER_01
00:47:19
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00
00:47:21
Starting yourself, then your kids, then other people. For sure. And where people can find you and how can they learn more from you or work with you?
SPEAKER_02
00:47:37
Yep, I'm on LinkedIn under my name, Amanda Riley, and that's where I talk a lot about the awareness and acceptance of neurodiversity within the workplace. And I also have a website called Thriving with Neurodiversity and an Instagram. And that's where you'll find lots of resources. I've actually just launched an ADHD starter kit for recently diagnosed adults, because that's the biggest thing I'm finding when I work with recently diagnosed adults. And for myself, it's like, where do you start?
SPEAKER_01
00:48:14
You've
SPEAKER_02
00:48:14
got your diagnosis, but now what? So that's a free resource I've kind of thrown up there, just my seven years of hyper focus on neurodivergence and ADHD, I've kind of pulled out all of the best links and the best podcasts and the best other things to kind of pull it
SPEAKER_01
00:48:32
all
SPEAKER_01
00:48:32
together.
SPEAKER_02
00:48:34
And I mean, I know, we're talking about kids and stuff, but it's, there's some useful things in there to about that, but also for adults who are, you know, maybe looking at their kids looking at themselves.
SPEAKER_00
00:48:49
Yeah, yeah. And when you're in the, you're getting the diagnosis, and you've been told so many things, and then the parents, often there's at least one parents who recognize themselves in that description. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02
00:49:02
it's especially, especially ADHD, it's one of the most genetic, it is the most, I get the words wrong, it is the most genetically inheritable of the neurodiversity.
SPEAKER_00
00:49:15
Yeah, because like it, like autism, for example, can be created by other things like premature, for example, which would have nothing to do with the genetic, it's just your premature death life and you can use that. So there's other things that can trigger autism. But yeah, ADHD is generally just genetic -based. So yeah. Well, thank you very much for being here today. It was very fun to talk to you and hear your tips and information. So really glad you've been here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02
00:49:57
Yes. Thank you so much. It's been fun.
SPEAKER_00
00:50:02
I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes as soon as they drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast and please leave everything in review so other parents can find it too. Also check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments .ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath, keep going. We're all in this together.