Justin Paluku - Up with Africa

believe, and act as if it were impossible to fail.

Our featured speaker today has been actively involved in working with refugees in Uganda As Up With Africa's General Director and Social Researcher,

Justin enjoys working with and learning from curious and motivated people. Justin, it's a great pleasure to have you as our featured guest today. Thank you so much for coming on to share your journey with us.

Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for joining today.

We really do appreciate you making time. And I was wondering if you might start us off just talking a bit about some of your childhood experiences growing up. Maybe some of the early life events or mentors that you feel had a really strong impact on who you became.

Thank you so much.

First of all, I'm going to begin maybe by presenting myself for one or two minutes. Yes. My name is Justin Paluku. I'm from the Republic Democratic of Congo, but currently I live in Uganda as a refugee since 2012. That's quite a lot of time living in Uganda a refugee. I'll go to the question. My experience which helped me to grow, I would say like event meeting mentors. So my experience in this way is a bit too much. Like before, I have met many people who have been influencers in my life. They are like role models to me when I was young ages, because I came in Uganda when I was a bit young, so I didn't know what to do exactly. I faced, first of all, the challenge of language barriers. Remember, in Congo, we speak French. In Uganda, it's an English -speaking country, so I had a challenge to integrate myself in the environment. Now I met some people who were successful in Uganda, of course refugees. That's one of the biggest experience I started like getting in Uganda as a refugee and I try to reach to these people, connecting with them, seeing

how

they have been able to succeed in what they

are

doing. So, they tried to talk to me what I have to do as a refugee, so that was like my first mentorship when I reached in Uganda, although I could not speak English and I was lucky that these people were from Congo and I could speak Swahili or French with them to help me or to guide me, to show me the way so that I can develop myself professionally, develop course my personal skills so that I can integrate easily in Uganda. So that was my first experience meeting these people who are now like my mentors today and if I can speak English today is because these people guide me. I studied my English in a church which was not a formal school but that helped me to learn and integrate in the community. Yeah, for now, I think my English is not good, but I can speak. Yeah, thank you, I think that's all.

Thank you very much, Justin.

Your English is phenomenal, I think, and it's definitely better than my French is. Have you kept up with the French?

I do speak French with, probably I meet people who, here in Uganda, who like to practice their French, So I also practice with them, I connect with them. That's the way also I practice, but I can speak French better, I think. Okay,

great. Can you tell us a bit more about your current work and your experience at Up With Africa?

Oh, thank you so much.

That's a very nice question. Up With Africa is my company, organisation, which I co -found with other refugees here in Uganda since 2001. One, just after our bootcamp, MIT bootcamp lessons. Up with Africa is an organization which support refugees in Kampala and in Akivali refugee camp with advanced computer technology. And we try to connect them with remote work or companies which can hire them locally in terms of technology setup. So now my experience working is up with Africa is quite not so for

a long time

is as I can say, it's just like a two to three hours experience.

At we've been able to empower many refugees in technology. Remember these refugees come from their home countries without knowing any knowledge of computers. Some

of

them have never even seen a computer or touched it. So when you meet such people, you teach them computer and you give them a job and you feel like, oh, these people are able now to use a computer at least to earn a small money to support themselves or support their families. So we feel like, wow, we are doing at least some impact in the community. Like, I myself, I came from Ponko, I did not know computer at all, but I was lucky, I got a job. Okay, I first went for a computer training for three months with an organization called PADIC, it's Pan -African Development, Education and Advocacy Program. So that's where I went for three months studying the basic computer. Then after there, I was given the opportunity to start training other refugees, the basic knowledge. And after some months, I got a contract and that was my first job. All of this together came in my mind like, oh, I think computer is something important to refugees. That's why I came up with the idea of creating App with Africa to support refugees, ICT skills, so that they can also be able at least to work either from home or going to work on sites and to earn a living. Because I have that experience, it has helped me to survive in this Uganda when I just arrived as a refugee.

Yeah,

now

up with Africa, we are seeing not only basic computer, but you know technology grows every day and every time. today we have AI, machine learning, we have

3D printing and a lot

of new technologies. So,

we are not

limited to only basic computers. Of course, we start with the basic computers and then we take the students to another level so that they can be able at least to compete in the global market. Yeah, of course, many challenges are there like internet connection. I myself am saving the challenge and having or owning a computer is another challenge we see when we are doing our work, but at least we are trying to do things slowly to see in the next five years what we can be able to achieve in Kampala for refugees and in Maki Valley refugee settlement. government. And we do not do only ICT or technology. We also focus on refugee education in terms of primary education, because many children do not have the chance to access primary education in Uganda. Yeah, of course, some organizations are trying to do their best to take children to school, the number is too low, it's very very small. So we are trying to build, it's still an idea, we need to build like education hubs for these children and if we get more resources we can be able to provide like something like tablets so that these children can access the hub, start learning sort of slowly by themselves and we can upload of course the Ugandan education curriculum or even other more curriculum so these children can, if the parents are not able to pay school fees for the children, at least we can have many of them in our home so that they can access, or they can also learn, not just staying at home, moving around, something like that. That's Up With Africa for now and where we are.

Thank you so much.

And I know Up With Africa is just one of the many organizations that you've worked alongside to help refugees and that you've been helping them for years in a variety of capacities. I was wondering where did that passion kind of stem from or begin for you? Because clearly it's really strong and it's really admirable.

Yeah, true. As myself, as a refugee, I didn't know which life was behind. Being a refugee is another life. Of course, you only understand when you experience it. I remember you flee from security, yes you look for safety in another country, you

don't

know what's going to happen or where you are going. So when I reached Uganda as a refugee, I didn't know what was going to happen, but I get to learn a lot of things in the community, with the host community and with my Congolese community and other refugee communities.

Being

a refugee is something which is, how would I say it, is something which is like you have challenges every day and every time. And unfortunately, you may not have any single solution maybe to any problem you face. Let me give an example of myself. Yeah, I came to Uganda, as I've said, I never knew how to English and I didn't know where to go to learn English. The host community could not even direct me where to go because I came to Kampala, the big city.

I not go to the refugee camp. I don't know what happened there. So what happened is that I used to play football in my home country. I was moving around, found a pitch where people play football. I also joined them. They are Ugandan, of course. I came with my equipment. They start playing. I could not speak, but it's only the ball who could speak. When I play with them, the ball speak in that way. Then I find one person who will speak a little Swahili, so I connect to that person. It's the one who told me many refugees in Uganda, they have this problem of language barrier, they don't speak English. But I know where they always go, where they can teach them at least the basic English. So that person helped me and took me to a church where we were learning English. And imagine I was more than 20 years old, but in a class we used to start with children of 10 years, even 8 years, we were just mixed to see if we can pick some knowledge see so that was a very very big challenge I was in that English class of course I was not okay but I had no choice I was just there learning and what we used to learn was all about like the verb to be the present tense only I am you are I am NOT you are NOT just

those things that was the English we were learning so after few months few few days, I was thinking many people are fleeing their countries as refugees and they do not know any English. So how are they now? And good enough for me, I was alone. I did not have any responsibility behind me like children or people to take care of. So now I thought, Imagine these parents who will not even be able to learn. How are they going to integrate in this Kampala? That's where I start feeling like, you know, these refugees need more support. That's where my heart of helping refugees started. Then later on, with time,

when I was now used, a bit used to the community, I found many refugees have no occupation. They have nowhere to go, they spend their time at home, others can spend their time just doing nothing, they're so isolated. Why is this? And the eyes are moving on, it's like these people have no future. Why can something happen to help them? At that time there were not many organizations in Kampala supporting refugees, there were like about two to three organization on which we are active. And many people, many refugees did not know anything about this organization because they are new in the community.

So that's where I started this thing like, no, no, no, no. I think I, as a human being, if I have the capability to help my fellow refugees, I think I can help them. And you know, when I was able to speak at least the basic English, I also started teaching English with children. For me what I did, I now selected a certain age of children in a church, and then I started teaching them basic math, English, and basic science. I just got a friend who was a teacher in Uganda, then he gave me some books they use at school,

so that I see these people, at least let me give them some knowledge. In case they get an opportunity to go to school, I will go to the knowledge I'm going to share with them. I start teaching them this primary school science, basic math, and basic computer. And good enough, I made 16 children successful. And their parents, I met their parents, talk to them like, now, see, look for opportunity to take your children to school. You always say like, your children don't have, do not know English. they came from Congo when they are in primary 4, here in Uganda they take them in primary 1 I told them no that will not happen to your children now I've trained them if they give them a test at primary school they will pass the test and they will go to primary 4

so when I met some parents they are happy and they made some effort of course they took their children in school school. So now those children are taught at a secondary school, which is always my happiness when I see them studying. It's my happiness. So that's how I think my heart of helping refugees grow. I like, no, I cannot sit just like this when these people have no future. If I am able to do something, let me do something so these people at least can have at least a better future tomorrow. They can grow some knowledge. So a kind of something like that.

I feel the crises that refugees go through is so poorly understood by a lot of people living in the middle of Australia or in America or here in the UK. And I think it's phenomenal

how you know what they're going through and you're helping with that. But what can people people who are separated from it in that distance, just in another country. Are there things that they are able to contribute? And are there scenarios where you've seen people from Western countries be trying to contribute but actually causing issues?

I think what is needed in terms of education is to provide more scholarships for children, at least from primary complete secondary school. Yeah, that will be a very very good impact in refugees. When a refugees has completed his or her primary school and secondary school, I think now he has the way to go. He now integrate easily. He now the environment, the education system in Uganda. So I that's the most important thing to do when it comes to support refugees in the nation. Because going to universities is also good, but at least when you complete your high school, you can also push yourself. Yes, you can also push yourself. You can be able to work. It's good in Uganda that refugees are allowed to work. That's a very good thing. And after completing your high school, you can look for a job and start working, save money slowly, then you can take yourself to the university level. And the university here in Uganda is not expensive. I think if anyone has a job, he can afford it. yeah that's one support I would say maybe to help refugees and another one is to support families I mean parents, parents who have children because it's something not easy as a refugee of course so what is needed is to support this parent with capital like something like a startup capital so that they can be able to start their own business and be able to feed the children at home. And of course, be able to support their children's education. If a parent cannot pay school fees, at least he can be able to buy maybe books and other school needs for the children so that the children can also access education. So that is also another good support

which may help refugees or which may produce the challenges that refugees are facing. Of course, many organizations are training parents here like tailoring skills, they are training like business skills, but very few organizations give these parents support, the kind of capital to start their own business. After giving them the skills, you'll find they end up staying at home because they have no capital to start their own business and to start supporting their families. I think that kind of support will help more refugees here in Kampala how to integrate and improve their living.

That makes so much sense.

I really appreciate you articulating the problem as you see it because you're building the economy in that area, too, when you support those parents and support them being able to work and live and provide the things themselves for their children. You've talked about education a couple times, and I was wondering what education options are available to refugees in Uganda, because I'm thinking about the U .S. and how difficult that is, honestly, to get kids in school. There's a lot of barriers to that, you know, coming in as a refugee. So what is that like in Uganda?

Yeah, in Uganda, I would say it's a good country, the policies are good, it's only the challenge that there's no resources to support or refugees to support themselves. What's come to education in Uganda, I think there's no challenge to join any form of education, private or public school as long as you have the

money

and as long as of course the child would do a test. If the child pass a test then that's all. The child

will be registered and affiliated in the school and that's applied to both primary level and secondary level. So I think it's something not complicated to attend school.

Yeah.

That's

phenomenal. I think there are probably lots of places in the world that don't have such a good approach to ensuring refugees can have access to education. I think that's really, really Hello

all.

I hope you're enjoying this episode with Justin. I wanted to ask you, our listeners, if you could give us a review in your podcasting platform of choice. We don't have sponsors and don't run ads, but we are looking to grow. So if you feel we bring value to your listening experience, please drop us a review when you get a chance. Thanks so much. Looking at your LinkedIn and the various things you've done, you've worked on quite a few different projects that sort of interweave your data analytics skills and your clear mission with helping refugees. Since you've worked in a variety of organizations, Do you find, or have you learned sort of best practices or best approaches when handling a project like you're handling with Up With Africa?

Yeah, of course. Of course. I've learned a lot. As you have said, when I came to Uganda, I started volunteering as an ICT trainer. That's where I started building my ICT skills, improving myself slowly. That was a very good experience because I came up to understand that in this world, if you do not know or you do not have digital skills, I think you are backwards. When I was at primary school, we never had any single computer at our school. It's only at our secondary school just back in Congo, we had like only two desktop computers and we did not have even any chairs to touch them.

So when I reached Uganda, being in a class teaching refugees, computers, so that was a very big experience to me. I was able to improve my computer skills because I saw like, oh, it means in every office, you must have a computer, which was not in my mind before. I used to think of books and pens, papers, but I understood that no computer can do everything. So that was my first experience when I was working with that organization. Moving on to other work which I've done, I've worked with Yared. Yared is a young African for integral and development. It's

a

refugee -led organization. It was founded by a refugee, of course, from Congo. So I've worked with them on projects which support... First of all, we did a research with Oxford University about refugee economies in 2018. That was a very good experience to me because the research was led by a professor from Oxford. That was my first experience working with someone from Europe. So I got to learn the mindset, the work planning, tracking everything, recording. So all together, I got to learn, like you work on a project, anything that happen, you have to record it,

you have to plan, you have to measure what you've achieved. So saw like, oh, that's wow, this is really some very good experience. That project, unfortunately, was short, It was two to three months, but I learned a lot. And also because I was working as a research enumerator or research assistant, I went to the community, the Congolese community, collecting data, interviewing different parents and adults from families. So that was also a very good experience. Like, oh, this is how work can be done. So, it was so amazing doing that project and with FIARID, I also worked on another research project from Toronto University, yes, the research was about young refugee reproductive health, where I learned also how to do sex or how to draft research questionnaire, how to make analysis, how to write reports, which I've never done before. So are really, really amazing experience to me. And they're helping me in my Up with Africa work. And I also work with an organization called WBDI. It's a white taker peace and development initiative. So, that was in one of the refugee camps in Uganda, which is Girandongo Refugee Camp.

That's where I worked with WPDI. And the one thing which was amazing on that job, because we did most of the work remotely, so that's why I came up to learn a lot again in terms of remote work, like how you can set meetings with people from different time zone, how you can collaborate on different documents, such as using like Google Docs, spread Google Sheets, something like that. I work with people from France, from Mexico, USA, Uganda, so that was really, really amazing. And I get to learn like, oh, if I know I can be done remotely in this way, so you see all of this experience have really helped me to have a mind of, let me say, of leading a project and of course as I'm a leader of Upwith Africa with all of this experience and knowledge, it makes everything easier for me. I know what to do, I know how to plan For a project to set a goal, to what you have achieved, to measure everything, to collaborate with people, to network. So you see, all of this together has helped me so much in my experience, and as I'm working with Africa.

That's really great. I mean, at this point, you are a seasoned researcher and project manager. Can you talk about how you first became involved with these sorts of projects, because it kind of reminds me of like, you know, something like a job you apply for almost and like, you know, you can do it, but it's not on your resume yet. What was your first research project or experience of this sort? How did that start for you? My

first research project was the Oxford, yeah, the Refugee Economies Oxford Research project. That was my first experience in research. This job, I did not apply for it. Of course it had requirements. Someone who has a degree at university. I never had a degree. But I got this job through a connection. That organization where I was teaching ICT. So I had a colleague who talked to me about that project. He asked me many times,

I have an opportunity, can you do this job? You know, this is something serious. I see you teach ICT, yeah, you try your best. You try to show your seriousness in everything you do. That's why I try to connect you to this job. This is a very nice job for you and it will give you more experience. If you feel like you can do this job, Because he said, I believe in you. For me, I believe you can do this job. It's not something easy, it's tough. And the people you're going to work with, they are not like us here.

They come with their plan, they don't want any mistake. So are you sure you're going to concentrate or focus on the task they give you? As myself, I also love challenges like this. I oh, what's going to happen? Let me do it, then I see. So I told him, yes, I'll do the job. Then that colleague connected me to that job. I interview, good enough. I was good in the interview and then I got the job that research from Oxford. The other job in the refugee camp, in Kiliandongo refugee camp, the one I've said that I was working with people from different time zone, from America, from France,

from Mexico, South Africa. So, that job came from MIT React, the MIT Refugee Action Hub. So I applied for the MIT React to do data science. We did the course in data science, we were studying Python, and it's even for MIT React where I was connected to the MIT bootcamp. I never applied for MIT bootcamp and

not only me, all of

us in our cohort, we were 49 people in our cohort with MIT React. So after passing to MIT React, then they also took us to the MIT bootcamp to learn the entrepreneurship and that's where we found ourselves in MIT bootcamp, which was also nice learning that experience. Now, this job in the refugee camp came from the MIT REACT. So it was a kind of my internship after completing the data science process for the MIT REACT. Then they connect me to WPDI, that organization which works in Kiriandongo refugee camp, who I work an IT specialist supporting their team in designing ICT guidelines. I was also like updating the content on the website, supporting creating videos, something like that.

So I never applied for this job. It was also a kind of internship which came from the MIT React.

I've heard very good things about MIT React, and Andrew, I think it was, commented, go MIT React when you brought it up, so I think that's a good sign. I know you did one of the MIT boot camps. This community comes out from that origins, and so something I'd like to hear from you about is if there were any of the particular tools that you learned from the disciplined entrepreneurship framework, or other frameworks that you've researched about that you found particularly useful that have really helped you in your journey so far?

Yeah, in the MIT bootcamp, I learned a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. Actually, I think the MIT React took us to the bootcamp, because I got a lot of surprise in that course. So I to come to tools, the tools I learned. First of all, I learned about Slack. I've never used Slack before, but once when I joined MIT bootcamp, so that's where I got my first experience in using Slacks, communicating, and Slack has helped me working with team when I get in remote job, we use Slack for communication. That was a very, very nice tool to learn about. And another tool I would say was Zoom. It was my first time to use Zoom. That was in our MIT boot camp back in, it was in August 2020, starting August 2020 to December. So I also got to learn about Zoom. So those are the tools which surprised me as it was the first time to know about them and choose them.

That's really neat. And so when you were talking before about how you got involved with MIT, were you saying that they initially reached out to you from the boot camps program and said you should apply? Or did I mishear that?

I applied for the MIT React computer and data science course.

Oh, okay. I understand now. Wow, that's really amazing. And

my application was successful. Before we started the computer and data science course, the MIT React took all of us to the MIT boot camp for three months.

That's really awesome. Okay, so you got to know that group of people really well then, huh?

Yes. After the three months, we came back to the MIT React computer and data science. them.

You know, with all of the experience that you have, do you have interest in launching, you know, maybe your own non -profit organization or business that serves the refugee populations you work with? And if so, what is the problem you think you would seek to solve or address with it?

I've launched already Upwith Africa. It's a non -profit and registered in Uganda. Yes, I've launched that one, of course with my colleagues.

And the problem we are solving in Upwith Africa is to empower refugees with advanced technology so that they can be able to work or to compete in the global market and unlock their economic failure. They can be empowered with these skills to improve their economic life and support their families, support other people in the community when they are able to work remotely and earn some money. So that's the problem we are solving in the community because these young people, these refugees, have no plan, have no job. They are just wasting time, staying, doing nothing. Yeah, so this is a serious problem. We're empowering them with technical skills so that they can be able to look for a job for themselves and start earning money and improve their economic situation in the community. That's excellent.

Thank you. Giovanni has a question for you. He wanted to ask how he can or we can support the projects with Up With Africa as volunteers. Yes.

Oh, wow. That's a good question. Yes, we have a lot of work, which sometimes we get overwhelmed. Yeah, we need volunteers. So any kind of support can be welcome. Support in planning, writing reports, capacity building, like our team. Okay, we are not specialists, all of us. Let me use that word.

But we need capacity building in things like project management. And of course, we need support, someone who will be writing professional emails for us in the name of Upwith Africa, reaching to potential donors, explaining them what we do and which kind of support they may bring in Africa so that we can reach a big number of refugees and improve their lives, something like that. So we need such kind of support and I think we shall do better if we get people who can

do that for us. How does Up With Africa raise awareness for the projects that they're doing and is there, you know, fundraising for a particular initiative? Like you had mentioned getting tablets to students. Was there a way to donate to that cause, or how do they usually go about that sort of thing?

We have not created any fundraising, but we look for funding opportunities. We apply, we submit our ideas in our projects. In that way, we've not created any fundraising yet. Yeah, unfortunately, and we've never received any good feedback whenever we send our application. Maybe we also need someone who could help us fundraise. I think that's something also good for Upwith Africa, as a volunteer, of course.

Excellent. Thank you. Now, as you've gone along your entrepreneurial journey, starting Upwith Africa and learning all the things you've been learning, has the advice you give to others changed over that time? I

advise people not to give up, keep pushing, of course challenges are everywhere and if you give up, it's like you lose everything. At least lose what you are doing, when you lose what you are doing, you are not losing, you are learning and you can see tomorrow how to improve what you failed. So I always advise many people, even refugees, yeah like I was mentoring a group of girls So, I was giving them advice and I think it's helping them in growing and they are building more confidence in themselves and planning for their future.

With everything you're doing and all you have going on, how do you sort of strike balance between life and work? And there's no right or wrong answer to this question, but we're always trying to figure out how people find that work -life balance. What does that look like for you?

Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, you know, sometimes it happens you have a lot of work to do and you have other responsibilities at home, something like that. You need, of course, to rest. So yeah, sometimes we go through such challenges. But normally what I do, I prioritize yeah I just make a list of the things I have to achieve in a week then if I find like oh these things are a lot I won't be able to achieve them I also have my other personal issues to do in my life with my family so I just prioritize then I can see the balance at least at the end of the week I feel like okay, I've maybe achieved 6 % of all the things. So it's just prioritizing.

Excellent, I think keeping your priorities straight and making sure you understand where you wanna be putting your time is such a powerful skill to develop. That's really great, thank you.

One thing I did want to talk about a little bit more is, because we've talked about your past and what you're doing now with Up With Africa. what do you see as the future with Up With Africa and for you in a more general sense that you want to be working towards or what other problems do you want to work on? Does that make sense? What

I see, Up With Africa's future is the

vision

we have as Up With Africa and we want that to happen. We want Africa to work in 10 countries in Africa where we will be able to support millions of children accessing formal education and millions of youth to access work remotely. Basically we empower them with ICT or computer skills so that they can use their skills to earn money, to support themselves, and to support their community. So we are seeing to work in at least 10 countries in Africa in the coming 10 to 15 years.

In 10 to 15 years, you think?

Yeah, in 10 to 15 years we believe we can be able to achieve that.

Do you have any shorter -term goals in particular or, you know, maybe like one to five years?

Yes, we do. So our short -term goal is focusing on Uganda, as we're working in Kampala. And we've started recently in Akiva refugee camp. So, in the coming four to five years, we need to work in four refugee settlements, and we also need to give support to refugees and host communities. We don't focus only on refugees because host communities face some challenges once it comes

to education. So, in next five years, we hope we can be able to reach 100 ,000 beneficiaries.

That's awesome. I really appreciate hearing the short -term and your long -term vision. And I think if you, as a founder, you sort of keep those visions in mind and you keep the team aware of them, you can really long -term direct your whole team towards them. I think that's really, really We like to wrap up each of our sessions with this question, and I want you to take it however makes the most sense to you, but the question is, what words of wisdom do you want to leave us with today? This can be a favorite quote, advice someone else gave you, a lesson or key takeaway from your journey so far, whatever resonates with you the best.

My word of wisdom is, let's say, believe and act as if it were impossible to fail. So when you believe, that's one thing. And when you act, it's another thing. Now it's for you to act as you believe in what you're doing, that I'm acting because there's no option to fail.

So that's my word of wisdom, believe and act as if it were impossible to fail.

That's great advice. Thank you so much. And thank you so much again for making the time to join us this evening. We really appreciate all that you've shared with us and taught us. Please feel free to nominate others for future Saturday sessions and you can listen to our edited podcast that Spencer's been working very hard on under Founders Voyage on your favorite podcast platform or directly on our website. You can also connect with us on Instagram and YouTube, and you can support us through our Patreon. And then Justin, if people would like to stay in touch with you, as I'm sure we all would,

what's the best way for them to reach out to you?

Yeah, they can reach out through my LinkedIn. My LinkedIn, I think, I saw you post my LinkedIn in the Discord, so they can have it there and reach out to me through LinkedIn. I'll be able to reply to them.

That sounds great. So I will go ahead and share Justin's LinkedIn profile on the questions and discussion text channel. Definitely connect with him there. And we look forward to connecting with all of you again next week. Thanks so much, everyone. Have a great afternoon or evening wherever you're at in your day.

Thank you so much, Justin. And thank you everyone for listening. Thank you.

Take care. Thank you.

You've just finished another episode of Founders Voyage, the podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. The team at Founders Voyage wants to thank you from the bottom of our hearts. We hope you enjoyed your time with us. And if so, please share this with someone else who might enjoy this podcast. You can also support us by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and by donating to our Patreon. Outro music today is Something for Nothing by Reverend Peyton's Big Damn Band.