Christian Pierce - What Business Can Learn from the Military

That was on the other side, was just listening to people. You know, my first job as a officer was a platoon leader. I had like 40 soldiers and between the ages of 18 and 44 from all walks of life. It was just listening and taking the time to respect them and understand their needs as an individual as well. That made me successful. I saw other officers who really kind of created this power distance and this hierarchy between them and their soldiers and their soldiers hated them. and they failed as a unit.

Our featured speaker today spent his early career in the U .S. Army prior to attending and graduate school in Brazil. He currently works at the Competence Center for Diversity and Inclusion at the University of St. Gallen while simultaneously pursuing a PhD in organization studies and cultural theory. He also enjoys writing articles and poetry, playing chess and training in martial arts and holds black belts in jujitsu and judo.

Christian, it's a great pleasure to have you as our featured guest today. Thanks so much for taking the time to share your journey with us.

Absolutely. It's great to be here. Thanks, Nancy and Daniel. I'm looking forward to this conversation. We are too.

I was wondering if you could kind of, you know, take us back in your story and talk to us a little bit about some of your early experience growing up. Do you feel like there are any big life events or people that came into your life that really started to shape where your journey headed?

Absolutely. So what a lot of people don't know is that even outside of the military, I had a pretty crazy life as far as moving around. So my father was an American football coach at the collegiate level. He coached at schools like the University of Georgia, Wake Forest, West Virginia, Pittsburgh. And so I calculated once between the ages of zero, So when I was born in New Jersey to 18 when I graduated high school in Athens, Georgia I moved on average every 1 .5 years So every year and a half was a new city on the East Coast. Somehow it was always moving a bit more south So going from New Jersey to places like Pennsylvania or Ohio or Delaware, North Carolina And then making my way down to Georgia and so that was actually really important cultural experience as I saw so many different facets of life in the United States alone. And so just that amount of diversity gave me the ability to start to empathize with people. And throughout that there was, I mean outside of my family who was moving with me, but there was really like one constant foundation, which were my grandparents. And my grandfather, who unfortunately is no longer with us, my grandmother is 97, she's crazy. She's still around and having great conversations. My grandfather was one of the first black officers in counterintelligence. He had this career where he played American football in college, then had served in World War II, and then had a full military career. And so, from the beginning, there were a few things that really stuck with me. One, sports, American football being the first since my father and grandfather, but this intellectual curiosity about the world and this idea of serving others or helping other people.

And my grandfather had never really nudged me to serve in the military, but when I came into high school that was right around 9 -11 and because of what was going on in the U .S. as well, I felt like it was really important to contribute in a way that I could using my background and my ability. And that was really where I was inspired to apply to the United States Military Academy at West Point. And that created a further foundation for, obviously, my professional career, but it was also something that kind of felt like a full circle with the relationship with my grandfather. Because he was able to be there on my graduation day, he was able to see Obama elected, and then President Obama was at my graduation, and I shook his hand. And so there were these things that really kind of completed this journey. And when my grandfather passed away in 2013, it was kind of like this passing of the baton to not just my parents' generation, but to my generation as well. And so that was really a fantastic relationship, something that I really look back on and smile at all the memories we had.

That's truly wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing.

Yeah, such a nice story to have, like, inspiration from family, right? I wonder, you tell us about the experience on the Army. How does that experience, because that's early experience in your life, so how that changed everything else for you? What do you see, like, when you think about, let's say, all the learning that you had in army as of discipline and hard work and all the challenges how that model you for Everything else. How do you feel about that?

Thanks for that question, Daniel, you know, I look back and think about this idea of a profession

where

at the United States Military Academy at West Point, you're completely indoctrinated into this military culture and lifestyle. So it's not only a military academy where you're becoming a military officer, it's a four -year accredited undergraduate institution. So I received my bachelor's in economics from West Point. While I was there, one thing that the military and not just being in the military but becoming an officer that they teach you to do is really get to the root cause of an issue and look to truly solve a problem, to always leave something much better off than it was when you first started but not just entering in to an organization or even a new country or new unit and immediately changing things. No, it's like you're getting your preliminary market research. You really need to just sit back and observe and analyze and listen to your soldiers because they're going to tell you their pain points and their problems and after going through that you can really start to implement your own ideas or your own changes and see if it's really solving

a problem. And then as you're leaving to go to another unit, you can look back and say, wow, I made this change. In my case, even at West Point, when I got there, they say this, that every cadet is an athlete. So every student has to participate either in an NCAA Division 1 sport or a club sport or what they call like a company sport. So club sports just internal within West Point. and it was 2006 there were a lot of people getting involved with Brazilian jiu -jitsu with MMA because the UFC was kind of on this rise and the army had created this combatives program but West Point really didn't have any Brazilian jiu -jitsu so it took a couple years because we kind of sat and my friends and I looked and saw, okay, there's an issue here, but there's a need, and that need actually solves a few issues for the academy. And we went through a whole process of briefing colonels and generals and filing tons of risk management sheets, but ultimately getting to the point where we had this jujitsu team started. So I became the first captain of the jujitsu team, and we were able to get cadets going to tournaments, but also it was helping create the foundation for future officers who would go off and they'd have to train martial arts in the army anyways. So giving them a more solid foundation and still being able to participate as athletes within the university was really kind of this phenomenal thing. And so, taking that same mentality and then applying it as I became an officer and going to different units really allowed me to find these nuances, almost like looking at concrete or like this foundation that had small little cracks. It was like a really good start, but filling in those cracks in different ways to make these units more solid.

And so, I was able to do that. I had two combat deployments and spent a total of two and a half years in the Middle East. And a lot of that was just actually listening to people on the ground, to listening to the Emiratis I was working with, the Jordanians, the Bahrainis, the Qataris, and rather than just implementing what was being told from the American side and just putting it there like cookie cutter, actually listening to people who were living in the region, respecting their cultures, understanding what their interests were, what the needs were, and then starting to work in a way that created a more unified group so that we could accomplish things. So I think that was really, on one side, I think that line through really just being almost like a true entrepreneur, looking at solving problems rather than just… I think a lot of people nowadays like to call themselves entrepreneurs and then they just want to monetize an idea without truly solving the root cause of a pain point that people have. But then on the other side, it was just really seeing each and every person I was working with as an individual. You know Your people I'm a person if you're listening to this live or the recording later on I'm gonna assume Probably a person maybe you might be a bot scraping this data Who knows

The the best assumption is probably that that you know your person and so that was that was on the other side Was just listening to people, you know, my first job as officer was a platoon leader. I had like 40 soldiers in between the ages of 18 and 44 from all walks of life and it was just listening and taking the time to respect them and understand their needs as an individual as well and that made me successful. I saw other officers who really kind of created this power distance in this hierarchy between them and their soldiers and their soldiers hated them and they failed as a unit, but we were able to come together. We went through a lot of field training and missions and even just small things like barbecues, like outside of work or grabbing dinner just to see each other as people and really understand that we all deserve to live a life of dignity and respect. And because of that, that one side, you know, kind of being a strong entrepreneur plus learning and understanding people kind of came together and I think really made my time in the military quite enriching.

Wow, I never, I didn't expect this response because I haven't been on the army. I have no idea.

I only see like in the movies and stuff. So I have terrible vision. I was dismissed when I enlisted because here in Brazil we have to enlist when we are 18. There's so many people enlisting with you that anything can get you dismissed. So, the view that I had involves more discipline than anything else in my head, you know, but as you're saying, like, problem solving and leading people, yeah, that sounds accurate. And that sounds like leading a business or anything that solves problems, as you said. So even if you're leading an NGO or social network or anything that you work, it's all about people, right? So I think that it's really inspiring that you gave us this different perspective on this subject, because actually, for me, I never thought like that, but that's 100 % accurate and true. I agree,

because honestly, like, it's really nice to see the army through your lens, because right, we see what we see in the movies, we read what we read in the news.

and I know some people who've been in the service. But yeah, just hearing how it shaped you, but also like, I don't get a whole lot of people that describe their, their actual experience in the military. And I feel like we need more of that to really, you know, shine a light on what it does for personal development. That's really awesome. And so now I can see where your passion comes from, you know, to improve, as you kind of say on your LinkedIn profile, diversity, inclusion, and equity, and how that can translate into company culture. And I was wondering if you could talk more specifically about your work at the Competence Center for Diversity Inclusion, like, kind of describe what that is, and what you feel like you've gained from that experience.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, interesting. You asked that question. And when I think about my response, it's taking into context kind of everything that we've talked about already because when I look at my life getting to this point, I tell people when I'm giving talks, the FBI has, you know, background checks on all of us. And every time I go get a student visa, whether it was when I was doing my master's in Brazil or, you know, now the PhD in Switzerland, I have to get this FBI background check.

And it always kind of shocks me because I see the way that they classify me by race and skin tone. And it's like race, black, skin tone, medium. And every time I see that, I'm like, wow, like they, they've really gotten to the point where they can classify us and say, uh, Chris Pierce, we see him as a light skinned black guy. And, and I say that because I've been confused for so many different things like this, there's this racial ambiguity and that's been with me, I mean, my whole life, like I remember being at the park in Newark, New Jersey with my grandfather when I was four and kids are getting into an argument at the top of the slide as to whether I'm like them and I'm black or whether I'm white. And they weren't going to let me go down the slide. Like there were some kids who weren't going to let me go down the slide if I was white. And they got into this argument. I went down the slide anyways.

But I think about these things because getting into diversity, equity, and inclusion, you 2024 was something I had never thought that I'd kind of get funneled into. It was something where I saw it as this continuation of my ability to help other people. And so having these different experiences, you know, with racism or xenophobia or ethnic discrimination throughout my life, and then being a military officer, I was like, okay, you know what, I am in a position where I can use my knowledge and my experiences to help make the world better for others. And so while I was still in Brazil, I had the opportunity to start working as a freelance consultant with a number of different projects. Some were even marketing or business development, but others started to go down this line of diversity, equity and inclusion. So, as things became, say, worse, like with COVID and 2020 with what happened with George Floyd, but not just George Floyd, with Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery before that, there

was this need, especially as I was pivoting towards Switzerland to look at this PhD, to really start informing people on racial injustices and racial inequities and what was going on. And that was where I started to collaborate with the Competence Center for Diversity and Inclusion on a few different projects. And one of those was really kind of this flagship that had been something I had used in the army, but then was looking at how to apply that

to make more profound change in companies and that was reverse mentorship. So it was a technique I had used as a junior officer to really focus on creating cultural education for senior US officers who were coming into the region because I ended up my last deployment ended up being 18 months, which felt like an old man being there for so long, especially when the Air Force officers were rotating like every three to six months. And I ended up being there for a number of different people. And because I had this experience, it was really convenient for me to bring senior officers in and say, okay, sir, these are things you need to keep in mind, depending on who you're working with here or things that you need to respect. But here's also how you can work with our host nation partners to really solidify the relationship and When I saw how that created a cultural awareness and empathy Basically a more inclusive environment for our senior military officers. I was like, okay, this is something I'm going to keep in my toolkit for later on and so going back to Switzerland as I

started working with the Competence Center for Diversity and Inclusion, that was really kind of the first big thing, was creating a full reverse mentorship program that companies could use. So, handbooks for both the mentors and the mentees, and really through that, refining a framework I had been using, but I had never really codified it in any way, and so we called that the House of Inclusive Leadership. So, getting companies who might not think racism is an issue in their workplace or xenophobia or ethnic discrimination to see. I've had calls with senior leaders and sometimes they're really blunt and it's kind of cool. Other times you really have to dig deeper into getting them to the point where they're honest, but some of those more blunt calls were like, Hey, you know, I have

never really had black friends or Asian friends or anybody outside, like, uh, the community I grew up in. And now I'm a senior leader at a top organization. What am I supposed to do? And so what I, I did is develop basically these four eyes. And I said, look, what you need to do is become informed, you need to educate yourself, you need to gain insight by listening to your junior employees who may be of a marginalized or an underrepresented background. And then after doing those two things, you're going to mitigate those issues in the workplace. From there, you're creating inspiration as a leader, as a role model, as a ally, as a sponsor, in order to make the whole organization better. And so that was really kind of the first big thing coming in. Now I'm teaching courses at the University of St. Gallen. One course is Increasing Racial and Ethnic Equity in Switzerland, which is a course that I wouldn't have necessarily thought

as an American coming in that I would develop it, but sometimes it takes that outside perspective, as I saw in the military, to really understand the things that need to be spoken about. And so we have that course for the past two years, I was an assistant lecturer for international diversity management. And then we have a number of external projects as well. So working with companies on things like inclusive leadership. We have a report we write for Switzerland with a company called Advanced called the Gender Intelligence Report. So a number of different things, but even this, let's call it field, I don't like calling like D &I industry, even though some research says it is, but as this field has changed, What we have seen is that things have become a bit too performative in a lot of different spaces and shapes where you have representation without justice or change. In looking at that, we've also started to really pivot more towards inclusive leadership because at the end of the day, it comes down to the leaders at the top creating, as we would say in the military to command climate, but really the environment for people to feel like they can be themselves in the workplace and then perform to their full potential. That also is kind of where I'm going with the PhD as well.

But that in a nutshell is really what we're doing at the Compton Center for Diversity and Inclusion.

Wow.

That's such a experience. Well, may I look at you and I think that here in Brazil, we probably treat you as a white guy, right? Isn't it?

Yeah.

If I can just quickly interrupt in, you know, when it, when I'm in Sao Paulo, it depends on what I'm wearing.

I never thought about it.

It actually is that what I want to ask you, because I travel a lot and my aunt, she married the, she married a guy in America that is Chinese. So we were talking, I have my business since 2009. So we were talking and I said, like, it was 2012 and I was like, ah, you know, it's not easy to have your own business in Brazil. It's it's a emerging economy and stuff. And he actually lived in Brazil. He was a Chinese guy here. So he looked at me and say, come on, then you can't complain. You're a white guy and you have your own business. And I froze. But then I thought he had his own business. He was Chinese in Brazil. So, you know, and I think there's a different kind of racism. I'm not telling that it's inexistent, because of course there is. But I think here in Brazil, as we have a lot of miscegenation, like, wow, it's crazy. Like, if you see my grandmother, you wouldn't believe how I am so white and my grandmother is nothing like me. And my brother, he's actually just myself, but in America, he would be considered black.

You know, it's, it's so crazy, like to see that. But here in Brazil, we're all used to that. So we, we find it like, yeah, it's fine.

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Thanks so much. Now on with the show.

It's different kind of races. As you said, it depends on what you're wearing sometimes. Even I, white guy, depending on what I'm wearing, I may be stopped by police and be treated like a criminal for some time. Like, I used to have my hair, like, really, really blonde. And that's something people from favelas do. So was stopped when I had this hair, so I had to change it. What I wanted to ask you is, how do you feel, like, what's the difference? I've been in America, and it was funny that a guy told me, wow, a white guy from Brazil. And it was actually funny.

I didn't feel, like, offended or anything. But how does it differ, like, from United States and Switzerland and Brazil and anywhere else that you went? How does it differ the stigma or the weight that they put on your skin color? Because I feel like in Brazil, at least here where I live, me, I don't see color. Like, it's kind of weird. we actually have difficult to understand some problems that you guys actually have in America. I've been to places where I was like the only white guy there in America, like you go to a bar and you see that you're really out of a place. I hadn't feel something similar here in Brazil because we all have different kind of races everywhere. And how do you feel like the difference, what can you tell us about that?

Oh man, we could have a whole another podcast about this, but it's interesting what you're

saying about your experience and thank you for sharing that because I've talked to Brazilians who've gone for like a year exchange or studied in the US and they come back a bit surprised because they are seen as this foreigner or Latino, Latina and it kind of throws them off, but it kind of opens their perspective. So when they come back to Brazil, they have a bit more of an understanding of the shades of discrimination here. And it's interesting because there was this push, I mean, even with Jiu Jitsu, there was even a push to get that seen as much more of a Brazilian martial art than capoeira because people thought capoeira was coming from the Afro -Brazilian community and it was quote -unquote dirty, rather than something that could be seen as like really classy or from a higher socioeconomic class.

When we look at Brazil, and you said a word too that is key, miscegenation, it becomes very different than the cultural context of the United States. And I often break down when we talk about countries into three different categories when we're looking at overcoming racial injustice. You have countries who were, or still may be, colonies. You have the colonizers, and then you have the beneficiaries of colonialism. You know, the U .S. and Brazil kind of fall in this first category where they were former colonies. Then you have countries like UK and Portugal, who are colonizers. And then you have Switzerland over here, who on a federal level as a country, there's a plausible deniability that they have about being colonizers. But Swiss government, Swiss individuals directly benefited from colonization and colonialism. And so, when you kind of look at these three categories, there are certain nuances within the countries within each, and that's really where you look at Brazil compared to the U .S. with this concept of miscegenation, which was like this encouragement of the mixing of people, since you had Portuguese colonizers and then enslaved people from Africa, and and indigenous people. And what a lot of people in the states who I've talked to don't realize is that where a couple hundred thousand enslaved people were forcibly taken to the states,

there were millions taken to Brazil. And with this mixing, there was this idea that comes from outdated field known as eugenics, saying that, well, in about four generations, you know, someone who's of African descent, if they are having relations with someone who is of European descent or lighter skin, then they can quote unquote, purify their family line within four generations. And you kind of see, like, it sounds really cringy and terrible, but then you see how that mentality is still toxically embedded in today's Brazilian society, where people are surprised. Yes, I'm considered white here, but I've been told, oh, I'm not a typical gringo. And I'm like, well, what does that mean, typical gringo? Oh, well, you know, you don't have the blonde hair, you don't have the blue eyes. And I'm like, well, still gringo. I'm still American. Like that. Having blonde hair and blue eyes is not a qualifier to make me American. But there's this idea of like, what is seen as attractive, or, you know, you go to parties, and people will say here, all that party was full of beautiful people. And that phrase, like beautiful people usually means like, it's like white affluent people compared to like if you go to like here in Rio, I used to go

like a funk party in Vidigal with some friends who knew the DJ and People be like, oh you're going to a favela. Oh ugly people there I'm like, what are you talking about ugly people? But it's like this this embedded idea that there's an attractiveness associated with people who are more of European descent and this ugliness associated with people who are more of African descent. Now when you look at the structure of the country as well in 1888 when slavery finally ended it was just like overnight like they're like okay slaves you're free compared to the US which still has a number of different issues don't get me wrong the US is not not great model, but it is different in the sense that you had the 13th Amendment,

you had a few different initiatives where formerly enslaved people of African descent had the opportunity to start building businesses and societies, which were then later on attacked. But there was this opportunity where people here in Brazil were kind of just stuck in this poverty trap, which you still see today, because the country is approximately 57 % Afro -Brazilian. And we're talking, you know, people who identify as black versus mixed, regardless, there is a population of people of African descent that is the largest outside of the continent of Africa, only the country of Nigeria has a larger black population. And so when you start seeing this large population, but the fact that it's really stuck at the lower socioeconomic levels, that means there's an intersection of racism and socioeconomic discrimination. A lot of people here tend to say, oh, it's not racism. It's just, it's, you know, classism, it's socioeconomic discrimination. But when you look at the research that's even come out over the past couple years, there's a USP professor named Clinton Portugal go there who? Showed that even at the CEO level and boards of directors here Still no black talent. There's no black Brazilian leadership, even though we know that people Are doing great things. They just don't have the access to those opportunities here And so, there's often this discussion, well, is it really an issue? Like, oh, this is just coming from the US, this anti -race. No, there are Brazilians who are doing great things here.

It's just the movement needs to kind of unify and congeal even more. In businesses, this is kind of going down my research for the PhD, See, businesses really need to start taking a stand rather than being performative. Because it's ultimately just understanding where we were in the past to know how we got to the present to make for a better future. Not just for Afro -Brazilians who have been marginalized or disenfranchised, but for everybody. You know, if we can create conditions in organizations and businesses and startups that are inclusive and equitable, not equal. A lot of people try and say, oh, it's about equality. No, it's about equity, it's about fairness. We can make those conditions and people are able to improve. Everybody is going to improve. So it's actually a collective effort.

So that's kind of my thought like on Brazil.

I agree with you.

I think that just two things that you said, I have to blame on television and other tourists, because at least for me, I've been in America so many times that I don't see that you're not a typical American. For me, it's you don't have to be blonde or have blue eyes, but I think it's because we have a lot of tourism, especially in Rio from different countries in Europe, where people are like really, really white and we call everyone gringo. So, if you live in Argentina, you're gringo. If you live in Mexico, gringo. If you live in Europe, gringo. Africa, yeah, gringo. You're always gringo. Oh, it's so interesting. Okay.

And it's not a bad term for us. It's actually positive. We love gringos and it's funny. Yeah, even if you're just visiting, you're always gringo. And about the beauty standards, and I also think that it's the Brazilian soap operas, they're always like, now they're changing and it's different, but they usually, all the protagonists, the top, let's say actors, they were all white for so long. That was the thing that made our society believe that beauty is white. You see, like, people there are from different backgrounds. They are straightening their hair to look like it's a white person hair. They're painting.

Even if you're black, you have like, I mean, Beyonce did that in America, but you see black people with blonde hair. And it's very common here. And I think that it's all because of the media that put all these ideas in our heads. Well, about the differences, societal differences, it's not just racism, but I think it's historical legacy and culture. And it's hard because I have a company here, I really wanted to hire more people from different races, but sometimes it's hard to find qualified people in your area as I work with technology. And I see that from time, when I started in 2008, it was really hard to see like different races working with IT, and especially women, very hard to see. And now it's changing. We've seen a lot of people that are coming and it's more easy to study online and stuff. So this is changing. Thanks God it's changing because I really think that anyone is capable. If you're black, if you're Asian, if you're Latino, anything, it doesn't make a difference. You know, so it's really good to see that we are starting to see it, but there's a lot of work to do, as you said. Like there's too many things that, not just racism, I think it's a broader thing. And have to think about, like, as you said, think about startups that solve those problems. And we have an example here that is a school that you can go in and you study for free and you just pay when you get a job. So it's on IT and stuff and anyone can sign up. It's really nice to see those initiatives and is interesting how this can help to be more inclusive and we need more things like that.

I appreciate that, yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. And

it

definitely is ideas like that that will help some of that equity.

From my perspective, and it's so, honestly, I'm so glad that it worked out, Daniel, that you could co -host today because it's so interesting to have your experience alongside Christians. But the other thing I also see as a white woman is like access to socialization that leads to empathy and inclusivity. Because so I'll just briefly share that I went through to a K through six inner city school in Massachusetts. And like, I didn't know any different. But what I realized now is that I got exposed to kids who didn't speak the language, who were from, you know, poor neighborhoods, because I was living in a poor neighborhood. And so everybody was just, we were just people, like for a couple years. And that had a huge impact on how I see the world. And even some people who are put in that experience, it can depend on how the rest of their social structure sees that.

If your grandparents react to that poorly, then you might start reacting to that poorly. For me, it nurtured curiosity and a perception of beauty that like this is beauty. This is what's interesting is all these different people with all these different stories. So, I don't think we can solve this in one conversation, but I really appreciate you expanding our perspective on that. So I know that we're going to have to have you back and ask you more questions about your journey. But since you are so entrepreneurial minded, have you had kind of insight into something you would want to create beyond what you've already done to address this or address another problem that interests you?

Absolutely. And thank you both for sharing your perspectives. There's a book called The Conversation written by Robert Livingston and, you know, he talks about contact and how just conversations, knowledge sharing, it's the same thing what that do with reverse mentorship can really inspire and enlighten us all. And it's really, really cool to hear what both you and Daniel have said. Sorry, Daniel, you too, I'm addressing you too, but I'm looking at Nancy on camera.

But it's really, it's so cool. And I look forward to future discussions. Now, your question is why I'm glad that we're having it today, June 15th, rather than a month before, because where I thought I would probably be with the state in the phase of my research here in Brazil for my PhD, where I'm at the point, I'm most likely going to pivot and just focus on a case study for a company. And I'll tell you more about that in probably about a month or two when we've really refined and the process with that company. But when I look at entrepreneurship versus intrapreneurship, I've always kind of seen myself, not necessarily as a company person, but as an intrapreneur, I really like seeing what somebody else has done and making it better. Now, obviously, there are times you need to break away and truly create a new entity or or organization, but I think that is actually one of the pitfalls that we have in encouraging so much entrepreneurship. I see that in Switzerland all the time as well because you have so much capital there. People will have a small argument with somebody and then rather than working together, they do like the Swiss smile where they're like, keeping it neutral, and then next day, they go open up their own business doing the same exact thing. So, you've got like a thousand people doing, you know, like creative advertising agency and the market can't actually handle that much. There is, you know, we aren't even talking about like getting to like a truly attainable market. We're just talking about basic demand and supply where there is no demand for the supply of service providers.

And so that's why I think it's cool to help organizations who already exist and being an intrapreneur and making things better with their processes, almost like this martial arts journey, where you're always looking to refine your technique to become better. And so I say that because one of the things that I am looking at and waiting to see is ultimately how the jiu -jitsu global community but global market also kind of shakes itself and refines itself over the next year because this year is the Abu Dhabi Combat Club tournament which is or was seen as like the Olympics of jiu -jitsu like if you win that great and so that's usually something that people really work for well an athlete who was upset with the organization just started his own and he has a lot of funding for that and that'll actually be on the same day as the tournament so coming to direct competition and so there's this discussion well should something like jujitsu really just be focused on athletics getting people paid and monetizing their performance or should it be a hobby? Should it be a way of life? Going back to the traditional Japanese perspective on Judo, which was kind of the original jiu -jitsu, Brazilian jiu -jitsu, or what we see today is just one small portion of Judo. So one of the things I'm looking at and thinking is, well, in working with some of the organizations I have with jiu -jitsu in the past, is it worthwhile to focus on being an entrepreneur with some of these organizations to really make things much better and create a holistic environment that really takes someone from childhood in training martial arts and builds the skill set that not only helps them succeed but makes them a better person, makes them more empathetic, makes them much more of a pro -social rather than a pro -self person so that they can ultimately regardless of what Avenue or industry they go down really contribute to creating a better society and so whether that does kind of unfold within in another organization and I'm able to follow this entrepreneurship route or whether I do have to ultimately one day form a team and create a different organization to really make these changes that I think are needed and jujitsu still has yet to be seen.

So maybe within about a year I'll be able to have a more refined idea. So that's one of the things in the back of my head I think about doing, continuing kind of this entrepreneurial or intrapreneurial path.

It's take time. And I've been there and I still have some thoughts about it. And I actually went to MIT in 2018 to ask this question to Erdene. I was like, Erdene, can you help me? I have some ideas and I have my own business, but I wanted to create something more impactful that would change people's lives and stuff. The best advice that I had from him is was, hey Daniel, take your time. Something will come up. It may take a while, but it will come eventually.

You don't have to be like forcing to find an idea to solve a problem. So, and yeah, I mean, I'm busy like working in consulting. That's probably one of the things that it's very intrapreneurship because you're always working on somebody else's company, like helping them to achieve something. So I can totally relate to what you said. When I think about, let's say, entrepreneurial thing and thinking about martial arts and all your experience, military and as you told us, leadership, I always find amazing how intrapreneurship and people are so close. Like companies are people, you know, there's no other thing. Even the AI companies, they have people behind. There's no way you have a company there, there are no people running it.

How do you feel like you have this experience with military, but how does the experience with martial arts make you be a better leader or work better with people? Does that impact a lot or how does that feel?

I've been doing martial arts for 20 years now. And when I look at one constant factor in my life, when things have been great, when things have been terrible over the past 20 years, there's always kind of been this dedication to martial arts. Now, judo and jiu -jitsu are different from like a karate or a muay thai like what they call the striking arts because there's this tactile sensitivity and almost this discomfort you have to have because you're constantly struggling and in contact with another person while training where like striking arts you might spend like five minutes and actually never really interact with a person. Yeah, you're watching them, but maybe you fake a punch and you don't actually hit them. With an activity like judo or jujitsu, you're always in a struggle. And I liken it to chess or just a conversation. It's like this dialogue with the other person where you're going to do something and then they're going to counter and you're in this back and forth, and somebody might win, it might be a draw or just time ends. And when you look at this ability to interact with another person, you can learn a lot. You can learn whether someone is egotistical, like if you're giving them the trust and honesty to be vulnerable and you're allowing them to, say, get you in a submission. So submission, jujitsu is like a hyper extension or an isolation of a body part to where a person has to give up. And if someone, if I'm giving somebody a submission and they know that I'm helping them learn, you're usually probably going to take it and, you know, they're going to try and then I I to tap to submit.

And then we start over again. And they're like, oh, wow, I see that. But if I give somebody that opportunity and then you can feel there's an ego, they take it and they try and really actually harm you. They're like, ah, this is my opportunity. I can beat the black belt. It says a lot about that person. And there are these little nuances that you come to learn about people through training something like jujitsu.

And in my free time as well, I teach in Zurich for an organization called Sports Agration, which helps refugees integrate into a society and it's great, it's so cool to hang out with them because these people have been through so much. I've been through a lot but they've been through even more and they have this resiliency and this perseverance to continue and so it's so cool to teach and because they're all just there wanting to learn. Like a sponge, like I throw something out and they pick it up and they're always extremely appreciative. And so in teaching people like that, I'm learning how to better interact with people. Or even with that person who is egotistical, who's really trying to hurt others.

Sometimes even when I'm teaching bachelor students, I have to drop the hammer as we say, you know, I have to turn on that military mode and like use command hand and Swing get really really angry with them, but you just go into that mode because that's what that person needs I can't do that with other students if I do that with other students, they completely shut off. They start crying They want to leave the course and so it's it's learning how to really interact with others So it's like this constant daily personal journey on improving myself But also inspiring and helping others like I was training last night with a kid who's been training for about six months He's a white belt and like letting him do stuff and it was so cool Because it's reminding me about like the beginning of my journey. And so there's this interaction that allows everybody help each other learn and build. And I always think about being a black belt. Like it took me 15 years to get a black belt in jujitsu. It's like the longest endeavor I've ever had. And once I made it, I realized that there's so much more, but at the same time, everybody else should be able to have that opportunity to make it as well. And it's my job to now go back and help bring everybody else up. I've made it. Like, you know, I could lose a million times and no one's going to take away my black belt. So I don't have anything to worry about as long as in that process, I'm still learning, but I'm also helping other people rise as well. And so I think that's really where an activity like Brazilian Jiu -Jitsu really can create a community to help build and inspire other people. Does that answer your question?

Totally.

I was going to say it's such a beautiful analogy too for the give and take of mentorship too. Like, and I, it's very clear that you see, you know, that inclusivity in each aspect of your life. And I really appreciate you sharing it in, in that light too, because it cultivating that mindset, I can completely see how that can translate for, you know, that kid you're helping out with his white belt right now, you know, and just, I don't know what comes left with a white belt, but getting to the next level, you know, like he's gonna he's gonna feel so empowered to continue on that journey working with someone like you. That's really beautiful. So to close out, I'd really like to ask you, not that you haven't shared a lot of wisdom with us today, but what words of wisdom would you like to leave us in our community with today? So it can be something as simple as a favorite quote or mantra or advice someone gave you or Or it could be a deep -rooted lesson from your journey so far, whatever you would like.

Absolutely. I think I would sum it up in three key takeaways. And the first one is be pro -social versus pro -self. And when you're being pro -social, you're thinking about the community and being selfless. Though there are definitely times where you might get burned or people might take advantage of that, you'll learn from that experience. But if we can get to the point where more people are pro -social community minded, we'll be able to make greater improvements for the world rather than just small short -term gains for an individual.

The second is, I used to hate this cliche, but it's so true, be a lifelong learner. There's so much in the world that we don't know. And then there's even more that we don't know that we don't know. And so, on this journey, just take in everything as this learning lesson, going back to even what I was saying about White Belt, there's things that he taught me that I will probably reflect on and next week, it'll pop up and man, here's something I can change. So always looking to not necessarily achieve perfection, we can never be perfect, but getting to this point of refinement where we're always learning and we're always adding to that knowledge and connecting that with being pro -social versus pro -self, using that knowledge to then help others. And so, that leads to the last thing, which is going from awareness to action is great. We have these conversations, we have podcasts, we've got TED Talks, we've got a lot of people saying so many great things, especially in the MIT bootcamp community. I mean, a lot of the conversations I've had over the years with people have been inspiring and given me greater awareness about certain topics. But that awareness only goes so far unless we really put it into action. And so when you're taking that knowledge, when you're being pro -social and using that to create actions, that's really where that change comes in, where we can see profound improvements and really become just a greater people, to hang out and do a lot of fun things. And I think those would be really my three key takeaways.

Wow.

That's like one of the best words of wisdom that we had. And I'm so happy that I hear that now, because I always thought, like, I don't really care about money, actually, on entrepreneurship is important to be profitable and stuff, because you have to make the company work. But I would rather like earn 10 times less in a project that I believe in, that I think I'm changing something and doing something. And also the second part of being a lifelong learner, that's the most humbling thing that you can do. And it's the best thing for you too, because we will never, never, ever know everything. So it's always nice to hear, even if it's like, I had an intern, he was 16 because he was from technical school,

and he had things to teach to me. And I've been on the job for longer than this person exists, But anyways, it's still, they have different perspectives, they have questions that they ask you, and you have to think about them, why things are like this, you know, why it's been like this for so long? And you start to questioning and doing things differently. And this is just amazing to see how you can give us this perspective and thinking about your story and all that you have been through and seeing that you're still humble, you're still learning, and you're still being a master that listened to its students,

it's really inspiring, and I really admire that in you, because you could be like this guy, like, oh, okay, I've been in the military, I'm like black belt, and I'm the man, but you don't have to be like that, and you're not like that. So it's so good to have this opportunity to be here co -hosting because I'm not usually here. So I feel so blessed and lucky to be here and hear all your experience. I'm really grateful.

It's been so much fun speaking with you guys today. I really appreciate it.

Yes. Thank you so much for taking so much time with us today and for everything you shared with us. We really appreciate your thoughts and the elements of your journey that you shared with us. And I definitely will be in touch with you to book another interview because I'm very interested to hear about your case study that happens. But in the meantime, if you do have other nominations for future interview guests, or if you're looking to connect with specific types of people in professions or areas of the world, please let us know

and We really do feel fortunate to be able to bring this cooperative learning experience to you and the other members of this community so thanks again so much for your time Christian and If anyone is interested, we have begun making this into a podcast You can find that searching your favorite podcast platform for founders voyage or you can find the links on our podcast channel. Thanks again, and have a great day and evening, everybody.

You've just finished another episode of Founders Voyage, the podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. The team at Founders Voyage wants to thank you from the bottom of our hearts. We hope you enjoyed your time with us, And if so, please share this with someone else who might enjoy this podcast. You can also support us by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and by donating to our Patreon.

Outro Music today is Something for Nothing by Reverend Peyton's Big Damn Band.