019 - Sleep Solutions for Intense Kids - With Meredith Brough

Parenting the Intensity · Nov 07, 2023

Transcript

Do you read all the things, listen to all the things, take all the courses, and you know a lot of things about parenting, but you struggle to actually apply them in your real life?

Then you're in luck. I just started the Parenting the Intensity Community, which is a monthly group support for parents of emotionally-intense kids. And the goal is exactly that, to take all the information you learn from the podcast and from all the other sources and adapt them so that it works for your child and your family, your reality, because things can work, but not always the same way for everybody. So the same thing might need to be adapted to work for you. And sometimes it's hard to sort through everything to choose the right things so that you can really enjoy your life and your kids, not always being afraid of the next outbursts. You can join by clicking on the link in the show notes or on the website. Welcome to the podcast. Today we'll address a topic that is really hard for a lot of parents, which is sleep. Sleep is already a hot topic in the parenting world, but when we have different kids, it can be very challenging and very hard to find a way that works for us. So today's guest is the perfect fit for that. Meredith Breaux has found her true calling as a sleep coach, helping mothers rejuvenate, connect and find peace by restoring their sleep and understanding their children better. Her baby-centered sleep system, developed over the last six years, caters to children of all temperaments, offering nurturing and tear-free sleep methods. But that's not all. Meredith impacts extends beyond her coaching. She owns the Sweet Lumber podcast, where she shares invaluable insight on sleep and parenting. And she's also committed to teaching and mentoring other sleep coaches and consultants in their journeys to success. So let's welcome Meredith to the podcast. Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solutions and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, deep down, you know what you need. You need a little encouragement to keep going on harder days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. Welcome Meredith. I'm super glad to have you here today and we'll address a topic that is a very hot topic in the parenting world in general. Sleep is probably the thing that we talk the most as new parents. So I'm really glad to have you here to talk about that today. Thank you. I'm looking forward to this. So can you start by telling the community who you are and why you do what you do?

Sure. So I'm a mom of five and been married for 27 years, which is a really long time. Especially when you know that my husband and I only dated for 10 days when we got engaged. And then we got engaged for five months. I'm proud of that story because it's crazy. It doesn't really fit me that much, but it worked out. So funny, huh? But I'm pretty passionate about helping mothers. I definitely love the sleep side of things. But my favorite part is really the mentoring, the connection, the having heart to heart, just being there for them when no one else is. Because mothers let me into their lives in a really intimate way. It's not just that I might go in their bedroom, you know, in their baby's room. Those are both very intimate things, trusting things. But also they cry to me. They call me when they're in the depths of postpartum depression or anxiety. They confide in me how hard it is when they may not tell anyone else. Hopefully they tell a therapist. They don't trust anyone because their struggles are really hard and no one relates.

At least it feels that way, you know? And so I really love that side of my work. I am really, really passionate about protecting babies. I don't think anyone really understands them. Like in general, they don't. So that's probably a big, huge percentage actually of my work too, is just educating parents on the nature of babies and their development and what they need to thrive. So I really love that side of my work. And it's really driven the innovative, creative solutions that I've come up with. I specialize in working with high needs, sensitive and spirited kiddos. And maybe someday some of my baby clients will be diagnosed with sensory issues or ADHD or autism. So they can be really challenging. The biggest thing is these kids are challenging when it comes to sleep. A lot of my clients' kids have easy babies during the day and then tough babies at night. And again, people can't relate to that. So it's just beautiful work. Yeah. And I think that's like sleep is such a vulnerable thing for everybody because when we don't get enough sleep, it can get messy real fast. Exactly.

Yes. And at the same time, we have a culture that pushes parents to make sure their kids or baby sleeps really, really early. I think it's changing slowly, but still the mainstream culture is like at six weeks, your baby should sleep in their bed for an entire night. And entire night in the head of lots of people means 12 hours, which makes no sense for a six-weeks-old baby. But it still is the message that we hear a lot. So I think it's very important to reframe that. And I'm super glad to have you. And I can definitely relate. I have three kids with three really different sleep patterns, and they all had their challenges. My first was sleeping really well. That 12 hours in a row at six weeks, I had that.

But then my second one, it took six years. So it really is different from one child to another. And I feel often the parent feel it's their fault. I would love for you to talk a bit about that. Well, they blame themselves because the culture teaches parents that babies are the same, and they just lump them into one big category. And they don't think about the fact that we all have such different personalities and that doesn't develop after we're babies. It develops inside the rooms. And that babies aren't just a pain in the butt or spoiled. And we're not spoiling them. It's more that they're completely dependent on us. And that's the way they're designed. And it's beautiful. But if we could just focus on that a ton more, it would help so much when it comes to the pressure that we put on ourselves and the pressure we put on them as well. Yeah. So I really focus on the fact that kids are individuals and different. There's a lot of movement now where, you know, maybe an attachment parenting bed sharing type of parenting. They are talking about this a lot more.

And I love seeing that because when I started my business, I was a lone voice and that was really hard. But I think they're missing something because there's people over here of really easygoing babies. Like, that's not really true. My baby doesn't need to eat at night. My baby sleeps for 12 hours. So whatever. Well, the disconnect is why there's a big chasm between these two groups. It all comes down to these differences and babies. There are easygoing babies. And that's why sleep training is still popular because it works for some people and they swear by it. You know, two or three minutes of crying and the baby sleeps great forever. It's really disgusting. But that's true. And then there's these other babies that are so clingy. And I don't use that word in a negative way, but it's so descriptive. Yeah. Yeah. They need the parent much more. Yeah. And they hang and cling to their parent and they thrive on the connection. One of my past clients told me that she had not ever thought or considered she would bed share. And she was against it because of safe sleep recommendations. And when she met her baby, she had this intuitive feeling that this baby needs to bed share. And so she did for like 18 months. And when she and I were working together, she was touched out. The baby was very restless, was connected all night long and biting and all the things were really getting to her.

So that's that's OK. That's why I have a job. So back to what you were saying, why we blame ourselves. I wish I knew, but it is very natural for women, especially to just be hard on themselves. I have a hard time remembering to celebrate the positives. I am always hung up on what I didn't do or what I did wrong. And so I think our nature, but also there's that pressure of comparing your child to another, thinking it's all on you, thinking that you're the one responsible for their progress and for them to perform well, I guess, because you know how people say, what's your baby like? You have an easy baby and they always ask about sleep. Is your baby sleeping? You know, and so right away there's this pressure of performing for you, whether or not my child's meeting up to par and my child is easy enough. But we should be saying is something like, tell me about your baby, you know?

What are you doing? How the baby is sleeping is not really an issue as long as it's an issue for the parents, basically. When the parents are too tired, then it becomes an issue. What about when you when it's terrible that makes those moms feel terrible that it's not going well, but it's not their fault. And it's that's why I spent so much time talking about the difference in babies. We have like a lottery ticket when we have a baby. You can have five kids that are all really high needs or you could have one high need kid in a couple of easy ones. It's just you have no idea what you're getting. We can't control it. And if people understood their babies better than we would, you know, just become a mother and have a clean slate for both of us, I guess, for the baby and the mom.

Yeah, definitely. And I think like the pressure, it comes so fast. And as soon as you share that sleep is not going well, people are throwing all those tips and tricks at you that don't necessarily fit. But then you feel bad because those things that work for them don't work for you. And you immediately think that's my fault. I cannot do it properly. That's why it's not working. And that's how people make you feel often. It's not just in our head. Actually, that's a really good way of explaining it. Thank you. Yeah. And what I see is that if you have a very easygoing baby, it could just be one thing. And so people all over the Facebook sleep groups are like, oh, my gosh, I got this white noise machine or this swaddle and my kids sleeping right now. And then there's these parents with the babies that have that nature of needing more contact. They're called signalers instead of self soothers. There's actual research on this.

It's pretty cool. But those babies, it's just not on the radar to be independent. It takes a lot longer for them to sleep well. It takes a lot longer for them to to start acting independent. And we can't force it. It's all the support that helps them get there. So anyways, those parents have to do everything. So it's funny because from the beginning in my business, I've always believed in checking every box. So I believe in let's use every holistic principle. And because I have seen it be a helpful thing, helping babies have some independent sleep skills is good. I just don't force it on them. I do it in a nurturing, slow way. So I check every box and then we see sleep improve. And parents know they've done everything in their power and it's time to let go and just be there for them when they don't sleep well. And I also teach them about development and how that affects their baby's sleep and how they recognize it's going on. And so it's just kind of a more peaceful experience because we've checked every box. We know how to bounce back if things go astray. And we're not expecting sleep through the night. We're expecting, hopefully, when things are good, four to six hours, you know, something like that so we can feel rejuvenated. But when things are rough, we understand why and we're there for them. And then guess what? We end up with a super healthy child who's healthy in every single way possible, you know, just thriving for the rest of their life as much as you have any control over because there's a lot of other factors later. Yes, of course. It's easy when they're little. I focus on optimal for that child. I'm going to optimize their sleep.

And so that's to their best ability. And if you can imagine, those are some really great messages for parents instead of some of the others. It's different. Like, I love that you're saying optimal for that child because for one child sleeping six hours might be optimal. For another one, it might be eight. It changed from one child to another. It changed from an adult to another. I need less sleep than my husband, for sure. I can function totally correctly with two hours less than him. But why do we expect kids to all need the same amount of sleep when we know it's not the case for adults? It's weird. Well, there's a lot of things that are weird and people are just used to them and don't think about them. You know, thinking that if we just leave a baby to cry when they wake up in the morning that they won't wake up as early. And so they do things like crib hour. And that's really common. And people just think this is what you do and it works. And in my eyes, I'm like, no, your child's awake and you're not with them. That's sad. Like they're alone, but we're built to be together. And I'm used to these tougher kids. Maybe the easy ones, they would just sleep longer. But the ones that I work with, they're like hopping up and down their bed and having a heyday, having fun, or they're screaming intensely. And it doesn't get them because these are babies and toddlers and children who don't calm down unless they're touched, unless they're held. Yeah, yeah. They need help to calm down. Leaving them is a terrible idea because we're actually harming them. So it's just it's just time to really help people understand the differences in kids. I think it comes down to that and actually how to meet their needs and why that's important. Yeah. And you talk about singlers versus self-soothers. I would love to know more about that.

What does that mean? So there is some research done and what they found was that there's two different kinds of babies. There's singlers and self-soothers. The self-soothers are these kids I've been talking about for years that are angelic, predictable, easygoing. The ones will just like look around a room and doze off. They'll suck on their thumb and fall asleep. They often will actually start sleeping well on their own. Parents don't even do anything. It's craziness. Maybe there's there's definitely different tiers. You know, some kids are barely going, but they have a little bit of a challenge. And so we work on sleep and some of these tricks and the holistic things and then they sleep well. So then when it comes to the signallers, I mean, that word just says it all. Just like I said earlier, these are babies who have no interest in independence. Actually, they hate it. They're the ones that are more upset with separation. They're very, very attached.

They're very regulated through you. When they don't feel well, they need the comfort and they don't turn inward and ensue themselves. It's I need you. And so no matter what, I'm going to wake up and call you to help me. So that's kind of what I focus on in my work is let's really naturally and lovingly nurture some independence fosters another word for it. Really focus on security and responsiveness and help these babies just feel a lot more safe and comfortable when they're by themselves or when they wake up. So there's some activities that parents do to get there. And then they just learn how responsiveness is what fosters that independence that we want. So it's not all left up to waiting like some attachment style sleep solutions are. It's more fostering is more actively working on some of these things, but never forcing. Yeah. And I think that's interesting because the message out there is so on if your baby doesn't learn to self-soothe, they're never going to be able to sleep, which for starters, it makes a bit no sense. People sleep in life. It's not going to ruin them forever. But still, I think it's interesting because it goes another way. It's another message. It's not because they're not able to self-soothe by themselves. They need help to learn how to. And I'm guessing we can see that also in other parts of their life. Those kids that need more support don't just need more support to sleep. They need more support to calm down everywhere.

Yes. And these kids are like holding on to their parents for their life when you go in a public place or there's other kids around. A lot of them will warm up and then go out and be active and hang out with the kids because they're kind of like testing the waters or watching things. They're usually highly sensitive and very smart. But as they become more and more secure and find that attachment with their parents, such a safe, reliable thing, then they become more independent. And actually, this behavior that you see now, a few months down the road, they might run off the second you get into that room. And that's one of the things that I've loved seeing as I've worked with clients for longer periods or stayed in touch because some of my clients are I didn't even mention this earlier. I have a school I teach sleep coach sleep coaches. And so some of my past clients became students. And so I've really been able to do a little bit more research on the side there watching long term. Yeah, that's it's one of my favorite testimonials I get when the people write me and say, you know, my kid is totally different now. I mean, in the last year, they've just become so independent and so, I guess, confident and reassured. And this is usually around one or two. And it's just so fun to see that because these are moms who are like, am I ever going to be able to put my child down?

Am I ever going to be able to sleep in my own bed again? So I do choose to bed share because that feels right to them. And we just try to optimize sleep as best we can. And, you know, they chose that. So it's not like I would say it was bad or wrong or it's not going to work for you. And they were patient and their child just naturally needed space. So that's another thing that I see. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also something in some spaces and parenting bed sharing is all be all. And in other spaces, it's like, you never do that. I think we need like a middle ground. It works for some kids. It works for some families. It doesn't. It's not the solution.

And it's not the devil either. It's just one option in so many other options. If we choose it, if it fits our needs, I can say my older one, it was no way to bed share with him. He was moving too much. He was not sleeping well in our bed. And the first time we put him in our bed was because it was so cold that night that he was cold. Like I was not able to warm him up enough in his own little crib. So we put it in our bed, but he lasted for like two weeks and we put him back and slept much better there. Kids are like that too. And sometimes that happens in their lifetime. I often see that around 10 or 12 months where kids are kind of pushing their parents away. You know, they want space. Yeah. Well, I love what you're saying because I call myself middle ground or a bridge. So I'm a bridge between the bed sharing or attachment parenting style and the sleep training style. And middle ground is always safe. It's always just like we're avoiding extremes. But also, you know, people just find a better fit that way. You can choose. You can choose to bed share. I'm not going to help people sleep train. But there are some principles from that world that I think are good. And, you know, the holistic side is always good. And like I said, I help people foster independence instead of forcing it. And some people in the attachment side will say, but there's no proof that that works. There's no proof that that's good. And they're the ones who are saying that all babies are the same in their way, which is nursing all night long and not being able to sleep for long periods. So they can't really see my side. But for me, it's through experience that, you know, I worked with children in my daycare and my own five kids for 15 years.

And then the last six years with hundreds over a thousand families. And I know that these principles work. So foster independence is good as long as you do it in a healthy way. And some kids are ready for it and you wait a little while and it happens. That happens. So which is not the same as forcing or like what we call sleep training, which it's a word that was canned and in a way of like it means letting baby cry. So they fall asleep basically. But sleep training in itself is not a bad thing. It's just that it became something specific. This sleep world. And with the term self-soothing, when that was coined and that began, it meant we want these children to connect sleep cycles. And when parents hear self-soothe, they think about having actual coping skills. They think in more adult terms, oh, well, that means my child can turn inward and calm themselves. And when you learn about the nature of babies, actually, they can't even be going ones. The difference between them and the more complicated, complex, needy babies is that these babies have like a built in healthy nervous system. It switches on enough when it's supposed to. They don't get as it worked up. They're just calmer. They're more cool and chill. But also the really basic abilities of coping as a young baby would be just limited to sucking the thumb, turning away when overstimulated or using their body in some way that's like rhythmic movement, something very relaxing to them, trying to express their feelings.

That's about it. But when it comes to not feeling well, getting hurt or being scared, all babies rely on their parents for comfort. They co-regulate. You look at these other babies that are so, so sensitive and in tune with their bodies and what's going on with changes and how they feel and they get worked up easily and they can't calm down easily. Those babies need their parents a lot more. And there's actually studies that show that those babies gain a lot more from their parents. So there's like this direct relationship with my baby needs me a lot and I'm investing in them. But they're actually being affected more by their parents. And as time goes on, you see more of the resemblance. Like my child's acting like me. My child got this from me. And I'm really investing into them. And I'm actually seeing the results where the easy kids, the parents just aren't having to do that.

So interesting to see that there's been studies done on this so that you can tell the difference. I think that's one of the first things I tell my clients and they're like, let me let that settle in a little bit. Because you know, the message is you're spoiling your baby. Yes, this is your fault. But really, you're doing a damn good job. You're doing for your child and all the thriving is because of you. Yeah. And I think that's the biggest thing. We always come back in like basically all discussion is that if parents are here or listening to your podcast or looking for clues and searching for information, they're doing the best job ever. Absolutely. As soon as you're trying to be a good parents, you're a good parents. It's not like it's not a result. It's a process. Yeah. And there was something that a therapist told me when my kids were younger. And someone once said to me, well, that doesn't feel like that works for me because I feel like some kids need so much from us that we can't can't serve them enough. We can't do enough.

We can't be enough. And I'm like, I don't want to hear that. I really don't, because I'm not going to put this pressure on myself of being a superhero because I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I think that's the reality of a lot of people listening, that they might have older kids that are four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, even tween or teens who don't sleep. Okay, when we're in the teen years, it's another story completely because then you start not sleeping again for other reasons. Yeah, it is. It's interesting. Subject for another day. If you have children, I would say like four to eight years old, for example, that sleep is more difficult, that they still need you at night. They wake up still, not necessarily every night, but more than once in a while. I would even go as far as saying like two on up, that people just don't talk about it. There's hardly any resources out there for you. I have an associate who focuses on children's sleep, and she has a very similar perspective and style as me, and I love that. So I can share her name with you later. I actually work with kids up till six, because after six, I feel like it's really complicated. And I actually will talk to people. I have a free intervention calls when I call it, or it's just a consult. And if someone has an older child, I'll often just talk to them for free because I can usually pinpoint sleep disorders or ADHD or something health wise that's affecting these child children that they had no idea. So that's a really, really powerful thing to be able to point parents towards the right resources. Maybe they have anxiety, they need therapists, that sort of thing. So I'm not simplifying everybody's sleep problems that way, but I just find that very common. Before six, I have some similar principles that I focus on, like, how do we bridge separation? How do we give these kids confidence to feel safe at night? Let's use all the holistic principles possible. And a lot of it comes down to bedtime sleep cues, being aware of when a child's tired, having a routine, and just, again, looking at these kids as individuals and what they need, like, how do we bridge that? And the routine doesn't have to be the same. I feel that's something that we often see, like, the routine needs to be exactly the same all the time. When you look on Pinterest or Instagram and you have like, this is the routine that your child needs to follow in the evening, I need to give a bath and read a book and go, it doesn't always work. We don't want to compare it to other people's routines, which is what I thought you were going to start with, because a routine doesn't matter that much, like from house to house, it can be completely different.

It is very helpful if you can keep it the same and if you can keep it in the same order. That's a real principle. It's holistic. It helps the circadian rhythm work for you. It helps your child's brain recognize all these different cues that you need to follow in the evening. I think what you're talking about is the fact that some kids, they might have an aversion to bedtime, they might be very strong willed, and so we need to give them choices. So what I usually do is there's pieces of the routine that you can mix up, you know, like different number of books, maybe we have playtime and that part is different. And so as much as you can, trying to keep things in the same order is good, but definitely mix things up as to what the activities are. But there's a pediatric psychiatrist that I follow. She wrote an article about bedtime aversion. I see a lot of FOMO, so fear of missing out at bedtime. And that usually goes away with what I teach parents. But there is a real thing, our kids will have an aversion to sleep or just bedtime routines in general. And her suggestion is to mix it up from night to night. So it can be a huge thing. It takes the pressure off and helps the kid relax and not mind. And so that's when you would do like one night, we're having all these activities in the bath and the next night we're doing something playful with our imaginations or maybe the same thing that we do in the morning. So she's all about making it fun, too. I really I share the article with parents all the time, just in case they run into those troubles. That's a good idea. I also love what you were saying. Routine is different from one family to another. And I think that's very important, too. And also, I think some of our more intense children sometimes need to move before bedtime. And that's something that is never anywhere in typical routine that we see. Like some kids need to get out of that energy.

I know that's huge. I'm actually seeing it more on Instagram lately from some of the holistic sleep consultants. And I'm so glad to see that because for years and years, I thought the same thing. And I would teach my clients with spirited kids that they need to slow their baby's bodies down or their toddler body. And that's true at some point, because very active kids will go, go, go as long as you let them until they crash. It's totally true. But there's a healthier way to approach this, where you are giving these kids these physical activities throughout the day that will help. It will help them with naps. It'll help them with their night's sleep. And then sometime before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep.

And then sometimes before bedtime, which is a good thing, too, is that you can get them to sleep. And then the second thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the second thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the second thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the second thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the second thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the second thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the third thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the second thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the third thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the fourth thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the fourth thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And then the fourth thing that I'm looking for when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is just the rough and tumble play. And actually if kids did more with their muscles, that's a really good way to improve sleep. It really really wears kids out. What's great is if you can kind of intertwine the rough and tumble play with lots of outside time. It's like a sun that releases serotonin and serotonin breaks down into melatonin. So there's so many natural ways to improve sleep. And I actually had a toddler client once whose parents were like, I just cannot slow him down.

There's nothing I can do. And I always tell parents like, you know, right before they go to sleep, at least limit the space. You know, maybe it's being arms. Maybe it's being in the crib or something. And that can help them not be quite as active. But if kids like that, if you give them 10 or 15 minutes to be super active at the very beginning of the routine, I've seen some kids who are jumping on their bed and they're like, oh, I'm going to be super active. And I've seen some kids who are jumping on their bed and asleep six minutes later. It's crazy. And I think that's so not in the common. I have a child. I have two of those, in fact, that would benefit from more movement at the end of the day. And when my older one was little, when my husband was doing that, I was like, don't do that. You're going to excite him and he's not going to sleep ever. And I feel it's so in the common knowledge. And we always see that we hear that. It's not true for all children. Some children need that excitement just before they can fall asleep and they will crash. But do you understand that there are kids, I think, very typical kids, if you give them any type of activities that include their legs. Walking, running, jumping, all that sort of thing is just kind of like a way to keep rejuvenating energy. Actually, a teacher tell me that that's something that they teach at school. And so when they do like activities at school, they're trying to just use the arms and the upper body so that they're not getting the kids all hyped up and too active in the classroom sitting, you know. But that all kids need to move periodically throughout the day. And you have permission. If you sense this about your child, this works. Don't think you're doing something wrong or that you have like these parenting ways that are weird or crazy.

Like, no, there's science here too. And I think that's important because it's something that is often missed. And it's not for all children. Like some children, it will make them impossible to go to bed. But for some, it's necessary and we don't do it because we feel it's not the way to go. So I love that you're, I think the message that I hear the most from you is it depends. Each child is different and we need to adjust the sleep routine and the tips to sleep and to their reality, like who they are and what they need, which is what I always say for everything in parenting. And it definitely also applies to sleep. So I really love that. I hope you don't mind me just mentioning this as a side note. I was talking about fostering independence and teaching little kids how to fall asleep on their own. I barely mentioned it, but I, I think it's important to know that. But I actually have eight methods that I use for teaching this. And I have tear free methods. And I just want to point out that it's not that tears are bad and it's a totally normal way of expressing oneself and communicating. So it's not that tears are bad. It's just that I found that some kids cooperate better when they feel very peaceful and happy. And I'm a huge advocate for making the bedroom feel like a safe, happy place that they love. So that's where that comes from. But what I was saying is that each child has different needs when it comes to the way they fall asleep and the way the routine looks. And that's why I have so many methods. And it's not, it's not always like just a preference. This is how these children progress. It is the only way. And people will use cry it out for weeks, for hours a night. And it was just scream or sleep worse, or they just feel all and it doesn't get them anywhere. If you've been through something like that, then you need something different. You need an approach that's more subtle and slow moving. And you know what I said about fostering security and independence and trust and all these things. And I think that's interesting because it also respects the parents' need, the way you're talking about it, because the extreme of attachment parenting is all about the child and the extreme of sleep training is all about the parent, basically. Like the parent needs to sleep, but we both have needs. And an exhausted parent is not a good parent because we're exhausted. So some days we are bad parents because we are exhausted. And that's just normal. But if it's every day all the time because we don't sleep, it's a problem. So I think it's great. It's just not waiting for that child to sleep one day maybe. And I would say that's what I did with my second one because I had no clue because I wasn't in that world of in between. There's that option, that option. And I won't let it cry because it's not working anyway. And I knew it was not the right solution for her. But at the same time, we didn't sleep for years. And gladly, I don't need a lot of sleep, but it was still affecting us. So I love that it's possible now to reconcile all of that and find a solution to help kids self-suit at some point.

I call it self-settled. That way we're not mixed up. We want them to be able to fall asleep. And actually sleep training usually involves the nighttime. And I don't do that. I only have parents work on bedtime and nap times because I feel like that's giving them some skills that then will just translate at night where they start to connect sleep cycles when they feel well. And other people think that's a mixed message. That's confusing to the baby. I'm like, no, they're so smart. They're so smart. They know. And they have different needs at night. And parents should be able to respond intuitively and follow their heart and be connected with their child. That's exactly what babies and young children need. So by all means, keep doing it. You're onto something. Yeah. And I think that's something that is so hard to do because we're so told so many mixed messages to follow our instinct.

It should be simple, but it's not. Yeah. And that's a big thing that I focus on in my work, too. If you're looking at any of my resources, you're going to find more about your intuition, your instinct, trusting your instincts. I think it's so important. Yeah, for sure. Is there anything we didn't touch on that you wanted to share? No. Well, actually, I was thinking a minute ago when you were talking about being this middle ground is that when I created my sleep approach name, baby centered, that felt so right. And it took me like five years to figure that out. And I love it so much. But it's funny because when I was talking to a friend about it, I said, I wish I could call it baby centered, mom centered. So I love that you brought that up a second ago because I am very much focused on the mother, too. But I'm just not putting it all on the mother. I definitely put most of it on the baby. You know what I mean? I mean, the baby's needs and being focused on the baby. But you have to see yourself in your own needs and recognize that you need to take care of yourself. Sleep is the top of the list.

But in other ways as well, we don't sacrifice ourselves, which I think is really normal for women to do when it comes to sleep, to sacrifice ourselves, because we're like, well, there's nothing else, you know, no other option for me. So you said that well. Thank you. That was yeah, that's a great way to frame it. You touched on a few resource earlier, but I don't know if there's something specific that you would like to share with the community like resource that you find useful or were useful for you and your kids were little. Oh, some of my favorite resources. Well, what's funny about that is that some of the resources I used, I wouldn't use now. You're not the first to tell me that. Like my kids are 15 to 23 and my oldest is a dad and it's just so funny. But honestly, I love learning what's out there now. You know, I really love what's her name. There's an Instagram. I think it's called highly sensitive family. Her name is Natalie and I can't remember her last name, but I love her channel. I love her resources. She has an email that goes out and she does beautiful, beautiful reels and posts. And she's just amazing. She talks about being highly sensitive and what it's like for her kids to be that way. And another one would be Brooke Weinstein, and she's on Instagram too. She talks about burnout and it's not just work for now. It's like regulation. All of us in this entire world struggle with our nervous systems being dysregulated. And we're burnout because of all the exposure to social media and constant stimulation and the fast paced world. So I really love her resources. Again, amazing reels. She has a podcast.

Those are probably my two favorite. And like I said, they're for me now, but I wish I had them a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also normal. Parenting has changed a lot. The resources changed a lot since the last like 10, 15, 20 years. Some books were around for decades and now they're getting outdated because there are so many new things and it's changing very fast. Yeah, but it's based on research and that's what I love. To hear what actually works when it comes to parenting.

Oh man, I wish I had that stuff back in the big time. Yes. And it's weird because research on children development is not that old. It's not something that was done that long. In the 70s, we started really doing those research. And even much more recently than that, we thought that babies didn't feel pain. Like how weird is it now? I know. Give me a break. Oh, some sad things. Well, yeah. And like sleep training, cry it out, those were created by men and they may have worked with children and parents, but they weren't studying. No. They didn't. They maybe through experimenting and they were studying behaviors and stuff like that, but they did not understand the nature or the needs of babies. And everything is completely geared towards what parents want. So I'm so glad things are changing. Oh my gosh. I think those techniques became popular when mom had to go to work. Yes. Outside of a house at some point, because before that there was no cry it out. Like moms were just taking care of the child. But when women started working out of the house, then it became a problem because everyone needed to work and sleep at night. Exactly. Yep. And that hasn't changed. And society's approach in America, not really having maternity leave and we don't have our family unit around us a lot of times. Those needs are still there. And that is another reason why I do what I do. Yeah, I would say here we're lucky for that. We now have almost a year long parental leave. It's three months of maternity, but we can share the parental leave between the parents.

But yeah, it can go up to almost a year. So it makes a huge difference in the way we can care for our kids because we don't have both to go to work. That's really great. I love that. I'm so happy. Someday it'll change here. I hope so. So where can people find you if they need support for their children to sleep? I would start with my podcast. That's the Sweet Slumber podcast. The first 30 something episodes are very focused on parents. And now that I have a sleep coach school and I work with sleep coaches to mentor them, I'm just kind of mixing in other episodes about my work and about women changing the nine to five in the corporate world to work for themselves. Because I am big on that movement. So you'll find that too, if that's something that interests you. And then also my Instagram. I'm very active in YouTube. So you'll find me. It's just the Sweet Slumber podcast or Sweet Slumber time is a handle that you'll find. Right. And I have a discount code for your listeners to get 10% off any of my programs, including my sleep coach training. Intensity is the code. Okay. So we'll put everything in the show notes so that people can find you, your podcast and all your support and the code also.

So if they want to work with you, they'll get that 10% off. That's great. Thank you. So I'm really glad to talk about sleep with you today. Because I think it's a very big, big topic. So thank you for being here. Thank you. It was really fun. Great conversation. Happy to help. I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes as soon as they drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast and please left a rating and review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments.ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath. Keep going. We're all in this together. Thank you.