029 - Executive Functioning 101 for Intense Kids with Carrie Bonnett

Welcome to the podcast. Today on the podcast we'll talk about executive function. What's that? Executive functions are all things that allow us to function in daily life like getting started on tasks, finishing tasks, keeping information in our mind to be able to do tasks and so much more stuff. And it's something that a lot of our emotionally intense kids struggle with. But you might have never heard of it, or if you're like me, you've heard of it, but you're still completely confused.

So today's guest will help us get less confused and understand more what executive functions are and how we can support our kids with them. So the guest is Carrie Bonnet. She's a veteran teacher and lifelong list maker. She's an executive function coach based in Bend, Oregon, where she lives with her husband and two children. Clary works with students and families all over the world. Her no -shame approach and the strategies she teaches empower students to thrive in life and in school, help parents and teachers to better support their children, and help adults get on top of all that life requires because we need those skills all our life long. And in addition to coaching she also has an adjunct instructor, she is an adjunct instructor for early career teachers at University of Portland in Oregon. So let's welcome Carrie over on the podcast.

Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together we'll find solutions and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, deep down, you know what they need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on harder days, and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. Do you read all the things, listen to all the things, take all the courses and you know a whole lot of things about parenting but you struggle to actually apply them in your real life then you're in luck. I just started the Parenting the Intensity community which is a monthly group support for parents of emotionally intense kids and the goal is exactly that to take all the information you learn from the podcast and from all the other sources and adapt them so that a work for your child and your family, your reality. Because things can work, but not always the same way for everybody. So the same thing might need to be adapted to work for you.

And sometimes it's hard to sort through everything to choose the right things so that you can really enjoy your life and your kids not always being afraid of the next outburst. You can join by clicking on the link in the show notes or on the website. Hi, welcome, Keri, glad to have you here today. Thanks for having me. So, today we'll talk about executive functioning, which is something that I'm pretty sure lots of people just don't know is a thing. But first, will you tell us a bit about you, who you are, and why you do what you do? Sure. So, I'm Carrie Bonnet. I am an executive function coach. We'll get to that in a little bit. But I was a teacher for a long time. So I come to this work from the teacher side, so I was a classroom teacher for middle and high school students for 14 years. And I still actually do a little bit of teaching. I work with early career teachers, so brand new teachers. So I get to see sort of their journey from the beginning, which is really fun too. But the coaching part, I have this coaching practice where I work with students and adults too, who are just struggling to get their stuff done. And so the reason I sort of came to it is it started during COVID. I didn't mean for it to really, but I started this gig during COVID. And what was happening is I was seeing, hearing from parents, friends of mine, kids who were at home doing school for however long. And people were saying like, gosh, I thought my student was doing okay at school. Until they were sitting next to me in my house doing school and I realized like something's up.

Yeah. And so I started to think like, well, that's interesting. And as a teacher, I always sort of had a heart for the kids that were struggling. And not, and they didn't know why, like, they couldn't explain like, why didn't they turn in their homework or there were no good answers, right? Like, or why could they not sit still for very long or they got distracted very easily or why could they start a project, but then didn't finish it. So, so all of those sort of things came together. And then I started to learn more and more about this thing called executive function, which didn't come up in my teacher training. I mean, I'm 49 years old. So it's been a while since I had my teacher training, but, but I just say now it's addressed in teacher. I don't even know. I mean, my, my teachers are getting it because I, you know, it's important to me, But I think they're getting a little, I think it's better. But I'm not even sure that it's a huge part of their training. I don't think it's mainstream.

Right. Right. So I just realized there was a great need and I was right. There is a great need for figuring out brains. And that's the way I approach it too, is like, it's brain stuff. Like let's blame this stuff on your brain, not on the human, right? like you're a delightful kid or super smart or has all these other gifts and and this there's a lot of shame around it so so I like to I like to take the kind of coaching approach and the no shame approach let's just blame the brand for this stuff we'll get into all that but yeah yeah and but we can do like um and I just want to preface this but executive function is something that we all have, basically. It's all something that we have to deal with. We had an episode on senses and sensory issues, and it's the same. We all have that in our brain and our body. But then some people will struggle with some aspects of executive functioning more than others, and we can all struggle in a different level. So what is executive functioning? Yeah, let's do it. Um, so I don't really love the term. I wish I wish we had something else. But I, the short definition that I like to give is that the executive functions are the brain skills that help us get our stuff done. So what that means is, I think the reason why the executive function term is there is because it helps these skills help us to execute a task. So I think that's where it comes from, but I still don't love it. I wish we had something else.

But what we're talking about are things like getting started. That's task initiation, things like time management, things like organization of your stuff, of your thoughts, of your digital files, of your sports gear, planning, prioritizing. How do I know how to get something, something big done on time? And how do I know like, what, what's most important? Finishing, like we talked, I talked about like finishing it. So it's getting started is one skill, and then finishing, which in the brain world, it's called goal directed persistence. But can, can we complicate the word? I know, all these sciencey words, all the, can we can we

do all the things that is necessary in order to finish? So this is the sort of thing we're talking about. And the annoying thing about executive functions is that there's a whole lot of skills, but they're all connected. So, you know, you have to get started on a task even when you're distracted, even when you're tired, even when it's boring and you have to finish it. So that's like a whole other, and you have to focus. And so the executive functions are these types of skills just to get our stuff done. And it's life stuff. It's not just school stuff. I see a lot of students, but you and I both know, like you said, we all have to use these skills. Yeah. It's everyday basis is to do laundry. We to do skills basically. And to get stuff done for our kids. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And like you said, it's every brain has strengths and areas for growth. So, um, like I'll tell you right now, task initiation, getting started is one of my challenges. My brain does not love to get started on the boring stuff.

So, you know, that's where I come in is I teach people strategies to try when they're struggling and strategies to, and tools to use so that it makes those things less of an impact on a regular basis. Yeah. Makes school easier. Yeah. Yeah. And what would, like, if we have a child who struggles in general, like people who listen to the podcast do have children that have intense emotions, so they will meltdowns or things like that. How would executive function impact that? Yeah. Well, emotional control is absolutely a skill, an executive function skill. And impulse control. So those are two things that are, yes, connected. And like I said, they're all sort of connected, right?

So like if it's something that a child doesn't really want to do, which I'm guessing is what you're referring to, the kids don't want to do the so maybe there's an outburst or maybe there's some kind of impulsive behavior related to getting started or changing gears. Mental flexibility, cognitive flexibility is another skill. I would say that's a big one, like when the kids need to stop doing something to do something they prefer less, that's often where you have a big reaction. And so I talked to parents a lot about sort of managing transitions when possible or setting up scaffolding so that so that this child knows what to expect. Because it is, like you said, often a, they have to go from like a preferred task to something non -preferred. And that's often, there's a lot of emotion. It's disappointing. They're angry about it. They didn't know you didn't tell me. Yeah. So even though we probably did 10 times

probably. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But also, like, I encourage parents to just get real curious to about and observe maybe even like make notes of situations when maybe not in the moment. In the moment, just do the best you can. But to be curious, like what are the biggest triggers? I guess. Yeah. What are the moments when there's something going on? And also, you know, this full well, um, is, is like proactive things can be more helpful. Like, like, does that kid need a snack? How was their sleep? Did they have really bad sleep last night? Exercise, these sorts of things are critical for brains and bodies. Um, doesn't really help in the moment. But if we're able to get curious, then we can sort of maybe try to cut it off the next time.

Yeah. And would you say like, for example, a child that struggle with lots of those executive function in school, when they get home, they might, or they just might add school too, like they might melt down because it's just too much to ask to them too, and they get overwhelmed with the tasks. Yeah. I mean, think about, so a student has to do sit at their desk and do some kind of independent work, right? Like, and, and we sometimes think like, well, just sit there and do the work, but it's not that easy. No, there is a lot more to it, right? Like they have to, first they have to understand the instructions and they have to have focused on that to understand the instructions. Then they have to be able to literally sit and not move their body. Um, they also have to be able to get started on the thing independently, and then they have to sort of keep going till completion.

And then not only that, but then they have to remember to turn it in. Yeah. Which is a big thing. Right. So there, so, you know, we, I love talking to teachers about this stuff too, because I think it's another way to help kids is that sit down and do your work is way harder for some brains. Some kids can do it, but that's because they have these skills. What the research says about executive function and kids is that these skills must be taught. Kids just don't learn them from the air. They do, they have to be explicitly taught. And so that's another reason why I love talking to teachers because they're with teachers a lot during the day. And it's where they do the most of the schoolwork also, so it makes sense. And it's a lot of those, like we don't have as much in our everyday life with our kids, I would say of those things. We do, we do. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Like putting on shoes is still a task that might be like a real life example for my life right now.

But yeah, it can be hard. So, let's take that as an example, just so we can make it very concrete. If you have a child that needs to get dressed to go out of the house, and it takes forever, what might be the reason? There's of course many possible reasons, but let's say it's not to go to school, let's say it's to go to somewhere they want to go. But it's still hard to get out of the house. What can be at play, for example? Yeah, I mean, part of it is focus, right? So the the there's lots of fun things in your house to look at or to think about and a lot of the kids I work with, they're, it's they don't mean to get distracted, like it's not willful. None of this stuff is willful that comes back to like the blaming the brain is that they're not trying to annoy you most of the time, but so some of it is focused, right? So you one idea would be to just make sure that when you where you're asking them to put their shoes on is in a place that is has fewer distractions. In fact, that's that's good for any, any parent on anything that their kids are trying to do is to set the situation. That's kind of what I mean by scaffolding, like get setting it up for your kid, like set them up for success. So maybe it's not in the playroom or not with the pets around or whatever it is and making it up. Another thing too, to think about in terms of the shoes is some choice. Choice is great for kids, right? And they sometimes feel like we tell them to do things all the time. So if for really little kids, it could be right foot or left foot first, Um, or do you want to put your shoes on here or in the car? Either one is fine.

You don't, I don't care. They just need their shoes to get in the car. Um, so things like this, like giving them some agency is always a good idea. If you can, sometimes you can't, sometimes you can't, um, but then also time management, right? Because, okay, we have to get out the door. It's super fun. We're going to music class, but it starts at 11 and we need to be there. So, I love a timer. I love timers. And not just any timer. I really like kids to be able to see the time. So, that's one of the things I will say is a, I don't know, big tip from me is to make stuff visible to kids. There's a whole lot of things in their lives that are invisible, right? Like time is one of them. So I love, I love an analog clock for that. Like being able to watch passing of time. Yeah. Because when you have just numbers, you don't see passing of time. Cause kids, kids I work with often don't feel time. Like they don't know how long five minutes is. I do have, I do have two of those in my house. It's a struggle. Yeah. Right. And so, so figuring out ways to make time more visible, Um, maybe even like, sometimes it's, they have to get the coat and the shoes and their backpack and whatever the things are they need to get out the door to school, for example. And, and so sometimes I recommend having either, either a list, some brains are okay with a list of things. Oh, that's right. I need my coat, my, or a photograph, like literally of their body ready, ready. Yeah. So what do you have? You have shoes, you have backpack. And so that just one photo, because I've seen like a lot of the steps, for example, that's That's too. Okay, but for some kids, just a photo of them dressed, it's enough. Because they can refer, they can look at their body, you say like, do you look like the photo? Yeah. And, and give some of their brain and give their brain a chance to, to think about it a little bit, right?

Rather than because the goal of parenting, you and I, you and I both know, this is like to foster independence someday. And so the more that we can give them a chance to use their brain to, to figure it out better. you're the solution. But like your idea about many photos because another thing I like to do with kids sometimes when we're talking about routines is like drawing a comic almost like what are the steps it takes to get out the door or in the morning what do what do we have to do you know like wake up, eat breakfast, brush teeth, whatever the things are but have the kid draw it out that could also be another thing to then you know put in front of them so they see it. Yeah. And it's not you reminding them to put the coat, put the shoes, put the backpack, check the photo, check the comic or however you want to say it. Like what step are you

on today right now in your morning routine? So helps because when we always give them the answer, basically they don't learn. Totally. Yeah. I mean, sure. So I am a coach and I know a lot about this stuff, but I'm also a mom. And so I also do the like, put your shoes on. Yes. We all do that. Of course we do. Of course we do. We're human. And I know that, that it's, it's better whenever possible to let them sort of think about it a little bit. So it's okay. And then a part of that is managing your own time as parents, right? Like if we are sorry, everyone. If we are stressed and racing and running late or whatever, then we're going to hurry them along. But if we're kind of managed against scaffolding, setting it up for your kids to be successful. And plan 15 minutes to put on shoes instead of three. Yes. Because it sometimes takes that long. Yeah. I do. I talk to students about that too. Like sometimes, Like, how long do you think this assignment is going to take you? And I actually ask students to, and adults too, to time themselves. Like, actually, let's collect some data. Don't just guess. And so, you know, sometimes the math assignment takes 15 minutes, but sometimes it takes 45. Like, okay, so when we plan, like you said, let's plan for 15 minutes for shoes. Well, let's plan for a half an hour for sure for the math assignment every day or whatever it is. like collecting some data about that is good too. And that, especially I would say for people that have trouble with time probably. Yes. And I think it goes both ways because it just made me think like my, one of my child when it was time to do some homework,

it was always the big, big thing because like, it's gonna take too much time, it's too much. And then once they really do it, it takes three minutes. Yes. But I didn't know at the time, But I think it was that for them, three minutes or three hours makes no difference. It matter. Yeah. Because they don't feel the time. So it looks like a huge, and I knew it would take three minutes, but you can't convince them. No, exactly. Because they just, they feel like it's taking forever because it's too boring for them or difficult for them though. Well, you bring up a good point and that is that like emotions come into it too. Yeah. You know, like I was mentioning task initiation, getting started. So there's lots of reasons why it's hard to get started, but some of it is that I don't know how long it's going to take. Some of it is I don't understand really how to do it in the first place, but also it just feels yucky. Like I just, you know, so the emotional bit is all intertwined too. It's not one thing. It's often a mix of a lot of things. And when you're struggling with task initiation, then, or, or completion or just the steps to do something, then the feeling comes easily into it because you feel like you're not doing anything correctly or you're, you struggle and you, you see the problem coming because with experience, you know, you've had a problem in the past and then things get more complicated. That's a really interesting point too, is that some kids that I work with, particularly brains with ADHD and other learning differences, sometimes can't, um, they, they can't connect to past experience. They can't remember or they to how it was last time. So even if it took three minutes last time, it still feels brand new and they freak out. Their brain freaks out a little bit. And so that's another thing that that's challenging about parenting kids like this or teaching kids like this is that they don't often make those connections. And when you tell them it doesn't work. And was, I not knowing any of that, just, I don't know how, how I came up with that idea, but I had asked my, my son to record himself telling himself that like some stuff. And it was super helpful because then I add just to like point him to that recording and he didn't even need to look at it, but he remembered then that he told himself that stuff. I know it's there. OK, OK. Yeah, exactly. Then it was not me telling him. It was him telling himself. And that worked much better. And I was like, oh, that. And then I didn't use that a lot. But for really specific things that were repeating themselves all the time, it was like, OK, I'm done. Yes. No, that's a great strategy. I love that. And that's also why sort of collecting data, timing things. In you can be like, hey, how long did that take you? So you don't have to be the one to say it only takes you four minutes. Yeah, yeah. Um, let's look at our chart. They put it down there. It's their answer. It's not yours. So it's, it's different. The message is not coming from the from someone else. It's coming. And you know, I mean, they, they are more likely to listen to anyone else besides their parents. So, but I love that strategy. Good for you. Thanks. There's some things like that, that in your parent, like we all have those in their parenting life that we're kind of like, find a solution. It like, wow, it works.

Creativity. Yeah, exactly. Desperation maybe. Yeah, most probably. And like you, like we addressed a few things that if parents have kids that are struggling, What are the signs that might point them to executive function that what should they look at and say, oh, maybe I need to address or like dive into executive function more. Yeah, I mean, a lot of it I hear a lot about messy backpacks and desks and rooms. I hear from parents a lot about like missing assignments, homework, and sometimes they've done it and they have not, they just didn't turn it in. Yeah. Um, so a lot of it is, is that kind of like homework related stuff. A lot of it is just homework battles at home, like constantly trying to get the kid to do, to do their homework. Um, and by the way, I never think it's worth the homework battle. I mean, a little bit of prompting is good, but it's not worth blowing up the relationship over homework. Cause that's the most important thing to your child is your relationship. Yeah, but other, you know, all of it, like having trouble getting started, we keep coming back to that one. But you can see that again, if, like I said, get curious and observe, you can see like they're staring at the assignment for an hour, not not doing anything right. Working memory is one that we haven't talked about yet, but that's another skill is remembering the thing, but also like remembering to do things that you need to do or take things to school, put them in your backpack or whatever, but it's also like remembering the steps while you're doing it.

So like doing an assignment, like remembering what comes next and what comes next. Sometimes that's really, really challenging. You read something and you need to use that information for the next step and then you forgot that. So, you know, these are the sorts of things, all the stuff we've been talking about, to be honest, is like a little bit of a red flag and kids struggle with this stuff for lots of reasons. I've just mentioned learning differences for sure. It's also developmental because all these skills live in our prefrontal cortex, which is in the front of our, behind our forehead here. And that is the last part of our brains to develop. The current research says that 20, age 26 and up

is when our brains are fully developed. And so some of it is just developmental, like, but that doesn't mean that the strategies are unnecessary, right? Like just because their grades are growing, we can still teach these skills and strategies. Yeah. Because like you said, it's not necessarily going to teach itself. No. No, it doesn't.

I mean, some kids learn from, from parents or teachers who, um, are strong in this area. That's me. So when I was teaching, this is an area of strength for me. I was doing things in the classroom to help kids. I didn't know what they were called, but they were called executive function strategies. Um, and so some, they do learn some of that from you, but I also work with a lot of parents who say that this is not an area of strength for them and it's not an area of strength for their kids. So that's really hard. Yeah. Hard.

Yeah. Um, so everybody needs to be taught these skills. Yeah. And some people, like if it's just there, like some kids will just pick up by example, but for some kids we need the extra steps. Yes, exactly right. Yep. Yeah. Great. Is there anything that we didn't touch on that you would like to address before we finish? Let's see. I think I just want to come back to the relationship with your kiddos. Yeah. That is thing number one. So, you know, and if a kid, I even tell parents when they call me saying my student is struggling, you know, we'd like to look into working with you. My first question really is, are they interested? Because if there's resistance, it's just not the right time. It's not worth it. And, and the relationship part with your kid is the most important thing. So sure, of course, you're going to try to help them. Of course, you're going to make suggestions that they don't want. Of course, you're going to, you know, do all this but but trying to step back sometimes is okay, too. Yeah, yeah, I think that's yeah, we, we won't dive deep into that because it could be an entire episode. But yeah, definitely that that connection is the first step and before addressing struggle, rebuilding the connection might be the first step and then we can address struggle, because we've most likely put some dent in the connection when we're struggling with our kids. And it's no fault of anybody, like it's just a fact of life. Absolutely. Yeah,

that's true. Like, and it's, I always love when, like, I think we, we talk a bit about that every episode, but I love it because I think it's very, very important. For sure. For sure. Yeah. That's the most important thing. Yeah. Is there any resource that was helpful for you or is helpful for you that you would like to share? Sure. Um, so a couple of things come to mind. One is there is a series of books called smart, but scattered. And, um, I love these Dr. Peg Dawson and Richard Guare. They have these series of books. I think it started out with like one book called smart, but scattered kids or something like that. And then now there's smart, but scattered for teens smart, but scattered for adults. Um, but these are great. They, they, um, they do really great work in the world of executive function skills. So, um, that's smart, but scattered there's a website, too. Oh, sorry, I love another podcast called the executive function podcast. Okay, so it's my friend Sarah Kesty. She's a coach like me. And she, she has great guests. And she is just a really great resource. So Sarah Kesty, the executive function podcast. Yeah, yes, we'll, we'll put that down the show notes so that people can find it. And if parents like their bell activated and they were like, oh, that might be an executive function, might be something going on when a child need more help with that, where can they find you and work with you? Thank you. Um, so I'm my, my website is just my name. So Carrie bonnet .com and, um, there's all kinds of resources on my website. I work one -on -one with families and students. I have a parent coaching group. Um, I work with adults too, who are struggling to get their stuff done. And then I also have a free resource at my website that you can grab and a weekly email as well. Right. We'll put that in the show notes so that people can find it all. Great. So thank you very much for being here. It was very useful, I'm sure for a lot people, because it's something that when you start diving into the world of neurodiversity, neurodivergence, you hear a lot about executive function, but before then I had never heard of that word. so I'm pretty sure it's a reality for lots of listeners. So thank you very much. I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes as soon as they drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast and please leave everything in review so other parents can find it too. Also check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments .ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath, keep going, we're all in this together. you