051 - Gifted and Twice Exceptional Kids - With Danika Maddocks

Welcome to the podcast. Today we will be talking about one of the reason, one of the root cause of why kids can be emotionally intense and it's giftedness or twice exceptionality that go end in end. Don't worry if you have no idea what that means we will be talking all about that and to do that we are having Danika as a guest. So let's welcome Danika over on the podcast.

Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solutions and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, deep down, you know what you need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on harder days, and permission to do things differently, and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. Are you tired of feeling overwhelmed and uncertain when it comes to parenting your emotionally intense child? Do you often find yourself playing with guilt, fearing that you're not doing enough to help them navigate their intense emotion? You are not alone.

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Welcome

to the podcast, Danika. I'm really glad to have you over.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk today.

Can you start by introducing yourself and sharing with us why why you do what you do?

Yeah, so my name is Danica. So I have spent most of my career focused on supporting gifted and twice exceptional kids and their families. I grew up knowing I was gifted. And in the last couple years learned I'm twice exceptional. And I've just always been drawn to really bright kids who are having a hard time for some reason, either because they're emotionally intense or have big behaviors or struggle in school or at home. And so I've always just like really got those kids and love supporting them and helping them and their families.

It's really fun for me and it's so hard for families with gifted and twice exceptional kids to find resources that fit their kids. So it's really like I'm passionate about it and it's enjoyable for me to kind of spread knowledge in that area.

Great, thank you. So we'll jump right in that topic since you already addressed it. What is Twice Exceptional? And I would just start, maybe before we dive into the Twice Exceptional, I think giftedness is something that is often like we think giftedness is one thing, but it's not really what it really is. So can we start by giftedness and like a bit of a Clarifying what it is. So we are all

on the

same basis.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll say there's really not consensus in the giftedness field about the definition of giftedness either. But so, and actually like the way I think about giftedness is really in terms of a, like, someone who's gifted has kind of an unusually high ability or potential in certain areas. and usually it's like really advanced verbal skills or very advanced reasoning and thinking and problem -solving skills. It can also be really strong visual spatial reasoning skills, almost like engineering abilities, or really strong quantitative reasoning abilities. And like every gifted person has like really strong abilities or potential in one of those areas. And giftedness can be associated, I think like what's hard for parents about identifying giftedness in their kids and especially, right, I know your podcast is for parents with kind of intense kids. So I think what can be hard is like, it's very hard to know that your kid is advanced because you don't usually spend that much time

with other kids, many, you know, it's sort of like they're just your kid they seem normal or you may notice that they're bright but I think a lot of parents are hesitant to call their kid gifted or to think if they might be because there's a lot of taboo and stigma around this idea that then you think your kid is better or it's like elite in some way. So I've seen a lot of parents who are like well they taught themselves to read when they were three and they do all these things but I don't know if they're gifted, you know, they're the real hesitance. And I think a lot, you know, intelligence is like highly heritable. So a lot of people with gifted kids have gifted parents who I think are also like, well, this seems normal to me, I was like this as a kid, and they might not know that they themselves are also gifted. So it can, it could definitely be missed or hard to identify. Or people may just be, you know, feel uncomfortable assuming that about their kid. But it's a really useful thing to know, especially if your kid is also emotionally intense, because I think when a kid is kind of wired in an emotionally intense way and they're really gifted, it creates like a combination where they're emotionally intense and they're really good at arguing their point of view or figuring out a new way to do something or telling you why you're doing it wrong or they use their very capable brain can make their intensity just manifest in a specific or more challenging way sometimes.

Yeah, it kind of increase each other basically. And think what we often think about is the kids that is bright in school, like that has good grades. And I think that's not always the case. And when it's not the case, we dismiss the giftedness really fast, but.

That's a good point.

Yeah, especially when kids get into like elementary school, right, is that a lot of gifted kids are good in school, right, and like, and maybe very academically advanced, and giftedness and academic ability or like IQ and academic ability are highly correlated, but they're not the same thing. And so some gifted kids who are twice exceptional, you know, have other exceptionalities that might make some school tasks hard, they might be dyslexic, or have a dysgraphia or things like that where they can't perform well academically, but then also a lot of emotionally intense gifted kids, just school is not a good fit. They may even have really strong academic capacity or potential, but they're like, oh, this being told what to do and having to do it in the teacher's way or like these tasks are not interesting. So they may look like they're not good in school even though they may have very strong academic abilities because it's not, you know, it's a poor fit in other ways.

So yeah, it's not the stereotype of like a gifted kid who's just like, you know, I want to go to school and I want to get straight A's and I get a hundred on everything and I always follow the rules. No, that's just one example of what a gifted kid can look like.

Yeah,

I guess that's also a gifted kids but they're not all that way. Yes, exactly, exactly. So what would be the difference with a twice exceptional kids?

Yeah, so twice exceptional, If folks aren't familiar with that term, it means kind of like exceptional in two ways with exceptional meaning like different from the norm, like an exception to the rule, right, exception to the norm. So giftedness is one exception to the norm because that person has really advanced cognitive abilities in one area or very strong cognitive abilities in one area. But then the other exceptionality is, you know, it could be any number of other exceptionalities. So really common and kind of most commonly talked about would be kids who are gifted and also autistic or gifted and have ADHD They're an ADHDer gifted with sensory processing differences Gifted with a learning disability like dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, things like that Those are the most common ones that are coming to mind But it could really be giftedness in any disability to anything that would be called a disability And would

a kid, I think that's a trick question, but would a gifted kid with anxiety be considered twice exceptional or it's just part of being a gifted kid?

That's a great question.

I don't think, not all gifted kids are anxious. Some research has shown that gifted kids are less likely to be anxious, actually. Yeah. So, right. I think there's like this myth of like the troubled genius that you know like gifted folks but research has some research has shown I think the results are mixed but some show that gifted kids are just as likely or less likely to be anxious or depressed. Some folks consider anxiety a form of twice exceptionality. I haven't in the past although my my definition of twice exceptionality keeps evolving a little bit as I keep learning more and um yeah just as I learn more so like I think about it as kind of like a recently I've been thinking about it in terms of like giftedness plus any other form of neurodivergence right so um that would be all those things I listed that could be anxiety or depression um it could be OCD or um uh tics or Tourette's or any other way the brain is wired differently. In terms of for practical purposes,

I think it makes sense if your kid is gifted and has something that also seems to really affect them or that they just operate differently, it's useful. And in my coaching work, I work with parents with emotionally intense, gifted, or two -week kids. And it's like the strategies for twice exceptional two -week kids are really good for emotionally intense, gifted kids. even if you don't know if they're twice exceptional, right, or they're not. It's almost like thinking of emotional intensity as a different way of being wired, right? So they need kind of different adaptations and different supports.

No the reason, basically, it's just how it presents itself in

the

way they react. Yeah. Okay. And so you touched on a bit on that. But first, how would a parent know because we, we address the fact that some parents don't really want to say that their kids is maybe gifted. And also when there's twice exceptionality, and we we've already talked about that previously, but it camouflages each other, basically. So it can be harder to spot even.

And

had that experience with my older kid. Like it took until the 10 years before struggles started to be enough that the bell was ringing and there was something going on. Like until then it was fine. So, what should we be looking for basically?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think my answer on this also evolves over time. In my work with families with emotionally intense, gifted and twice exceptional kids, I've seen like, I really think like, if your kid is emotionally intense, which they probably are if you're listening to this podcast, it's really worth considering and they're bright. If you think like, oh, they're bright or they're smart or they seem quick, or you know they're gifted, or that they have a high IQ, or really strong verbal abilities, I think it's worth considering

that they very potentially could be twice exceptional. Like a lot of times that emotional intensity, I think is a sign of twice exceptionality that's been unidentified. And it's interesting, because there's a lot of talk in giftedness spaces about gifted kids being more emotionally intense, but like research has shown, Like, I mean, there's not great research on all of these things, I think. But so far, like, there isn't any research that shows that gifted kids are more emotionally intense. I think it stands out a lot more.

You know, so we, like, I think there's a lot of gifted kids who aren't emotionally intense, who you don't really have to think about their giftedness as much, or they're just kind of going along, you know, like. And a lot of the families I work with, they almost, they figure out the giftedness because their kid is so intense, and they're like, what's going on? and this giftedness thing, this framework's really helpful for understanding my kids. But a lot of time, there's also another neurodivergence or exceptionality going on that's unidentified, right? So even like for myself, like I've been studying twice exceptionality. That's what all my research was on in graduate school. So I've been studying it for over 10 years. And it's like two years ago,

I was reading about like less obvious presentations of autism and I was like, wait a second. Dwayne, I did that when I was a kid. Is that a stim? I didn't know that, right? And it's just amazing to me because my whole life every all of my experiences were framed in terms of like well you're gifted so of course you're like that or you're gifted so of course you're super sensitive and really quick to tears and you know all these characteristics were attributed to that um but I think it I think I'm autistic and that's what it was all along but it but it looks it can And other exceptionalities can look really different in gifted kids. So what I would suggest for parents, I guess, is to learn about less obvious presentations of those different exceptionalities or get curious about them to see if those descriptions resonate with your kid. And learning from autistic adults or adults who are ADHDers can be really helpful too, because I think the stereotype of what those different kind of neurotypes look like in kids, that's usually not what it looks like in a gifted kid. And like you said, gifted kids can compensate, or they will mask and kind of hide those characteristics, or they're so bright that they're going to do well in school, even though certain things are overwhelming or stressful or don't come naturally. They can kind of compensate with their intellect. So just learning about the more subtle ways that it can present can be a helpful way

To get curious about like, oh, maybe this is what's going on for my kid, too Because I'll say to something tricky that happens for a lot of parents is They notice their kid is having a hard time either at home or school or parenting feels really hard or they know They're really emotionally reactive or intense So they seek out an assessment and the assessment will say like well, they're just gifted and anxious, right? or, oh, they're just gifted and they don't really meet criteria for anything else. But what happens is like a lot of psychologists and assessment providers are not trained in giftedness, you know, so they don't really know about how things present in gifted kids or twice exceptional kids. And they're not trained in less obvious presentations of autism and ADHD and things like that. So those things get missed. And a lot of times I'll see families who have had their kids assessed like before, you know, and I'll even read the assessment report. And I'm like, from reading this, you provide enough information

for me to tell your kid is probably autistic. But this person concluded that they're not because they just don't know that these are those characteristics. So some families, it's not until their second or third assessment that they learn their kid is twice exceptional, which is really, it's very frustrating. It's like those parents are working hard. They're seeking out assessments. They're spending time and money and they're still not getting the answers they need. So I think, so just knowing too, I think a lot of parents will have kind of like, they're like, it seems like there's something else going on with my kid, like, but I don't know what. And we went and asked this person and they said, there's not, but I still think there might be.

So sometimes it's just parents trusting their gut too. And, you know, looking at different resources to get the information, you know, so they can see like, oh, this resonates with my experience. Yeah,

yeah. And I think that one is important because, like, I can tell you that the twice exceptional diagnosis I'm giving my kids myself, because

nobody,

like, nobody will give it here for various reasons. But I talked to enough people to know that, like, yeah, they're, they're, like, they're ADHD years, but there's something else going on and autistics and ADHD years, but there's other, like, why do you think that we went until 12 and 13 before they were assessed? There is a reason.

Right, right, exactly, exactly. Like,

before then, there was no,

really not enough trouble to assess them. That's

why, like, just that for me is a telling, like a big telling that there's also giftedness that goes on, on diagnosed, basically.

Right, right. And yeah I think a lot of times like our kids like kind of brilliance and all their skills and abilities can you know when they're gifted it's like you know they just um can hide like the things that are hard for them right or it looks different. There is interesting research that has shown basically that like gifted I think it's mostly with kids and teens like gifted kids and teens um like perform they don't perform in the like quote unquote like impaired or disabled range on the assessments that are considered the gold standard for each of those things. So for example like gifted ADHDers can do an ADHD assessment you know they do like a task that's supposed to measure if a kid can manage their attention and they perform in the average range because they are like, I can do this for two minutes. Like, and I like to perform well and I like new challenging tasks and I'm gonna do it, right?

And they can almost like outperform themselves or like override the ADHD difficulties in the moment. But then they'll go in for an assessment and they'll say like, oh, this kid has an ADHD. Look, they performed average or like a little below average in all of these. But it's much more important to like talk to the parents, to talk to the kid, to understand what it looks like in real life, how it feels to do certain tasks. Cause the same thing is true of kind of the, you know, things that are considered the gold standard of autism. Autistic gifted kids usually perform in the average range, but when you look at qualitative differences and just how they approach life, how they socialize, and you can see that. And actually Dr. Donna Henderson is actually a good

research for understanding autism. Cause she talks a lot and has trainings about less obvious presentations of autism. and she always says it's important to look at the subjective experience. So you're not just looking at behavior, because like you're saying, right, it's like, well, the behavior is more or less in the okay range, right? Or like, not as noticeable. So

for sure. Yeah. And I think that's like, as you said, that all providers are used to diagnosed twice exceptional kids, and it's a lot of nuance in, and me if I'm wrong, but things can get more obvious as the expectation increase when the kids are getting older. So it might not show up in an assessment at seven year old, but it might show at 14, for example.

Yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and there's a lot of adults who are recognizing their own, you know, that they're autistic or that they have ADHD once their kid has been assessed, or it doesn't get identified

until that person becomes a parent. And they're like, oh, this really exceeds my capacity now. Like I could always work really hard and I didn't think I had ADHD until the demands became too high. And I realize that I've been compensating and coming up with all these strategies. So yeah, sometimes it's at the transition to middle school, the transition to high school or college or first job or having a kid that you can see the challenges or the things that are stressful become more obvious. Okay,

great. We will have you over again later for more how to deal with those kids. But is there anything about how to identify them or like something related to that that you want to add before we finish this one?

So I guess I'll just say in addition to like emotional intensity being assigned to me that I would be curious about twice exceptionality. The other things that stand out as really common you know if you know your kid is bright or if you're pretty sure you know they're bright or gifted and then some signs of twice except potential twice exceptionality would also just be things like having a hard time with routines and transitions like I hear from families all the time that like the morning routine or the bedtime routine are really tough or long or difficult right or if hygiene tasks are difficult or if things like if your kid is a really selective eater or has a hard time sleeping or if they have a lot of medical conditions like all those things are more common for ADHD years and autistic kids so those are just other things that parents would noticed about their kids but maybe didn't know or potentially related to being twice exceptional. So those are some other common ones. Or if they're really having a hard time at school or hate school or there's something that's not working there, it's worth looking into also.

You're kind of describing my kids to a tee right now.

You're like, check, check, yes, all those things, all those things. Yeah, or if they're constantly negotiating with you and fighting or saying mean things, like those are all this kind of hyper reactivity. Yeah, yeah.

So we were kind of the autistic description and then about Marty ADHD years.

Yeah, yeah. And a mix overlap. Yes, yes. There's a mix. But yeah, exactly.

Definitely. The arguing is often more ADHD or tendencies.

But

PDA autistics, that's one that I hear a lot of like constant negotiation, they're always arguing, they're always telling me no. And that makes me wonder about PDA too, because that's like pervasive drive for autonomy. So yeah, that's where it gets tricky, where it's like, you can learn, and then you could always look for an assessment provider who understands these things, where you could

get more clarity and go really in depth. Yeah, for sure.

PDA is another thing that we, like, I need to, to find a guest to talk about that because I've had a few requests.

I would love to talk about that. Oh,

another, another topic you could talk about. Great. Yes. So thank you very much. Where

can people can find you if they want to learn more and work with

you? Sure. Yeah. So my coaching company is called the Gifted Learning Lab and the website is giftedlearninglab .com. I have a free weekly email. there's a button to subscribe if people want to get a weekly email about parenting, and there's a free course to reduce power struggles with your gifted or 2e kid also. There's a freebie on there. That's a big one.

Yeah, yeah. Great, thank you. I'm gonna put the link to that in the show notes for sure. Awesome. Thank

you for being here. Thanks for having me.

I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes as soon as they drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast and please leave everything in review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments .ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath, keep going, we're all in this together.

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