055 - Different Siblings Connection - With Shruti Kumar

welcome to the podcast today we will be talking about sibling relationship and the imbalance I would say of the reality siblings are in when we have some kids that are emotionally intense and others that are not and to do that we are welcoming Shruti over on the podcast. So let's get into it.

Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solutions and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, deep down, you know what they need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on harder days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. Are you tired of feeling overwhelmed and uncertain when it comes to parenting your emotionally intense child? Do you often find yourself playing with guilt, fearing that you're not doing enough to help them navigate their intense emotion, you are not alone.

Many parents face these challenges and struggle to find the right path forward. But take a deep breath, there's hope. That's why I created the Parenting the Intensity community. Imagine having a clear roadmap tailored specifically to your child's unique needs and your family's reality. Picture feeling empowered and confident in your parenting, knowing that you are providing the support and understanding your child needs. It may seem like an unattainable dream right now, but I'm here to tell you that it is within reach. Come join us for our monthly group support to connect with other parents and get supported with your challenge right now. You also get one -on -one chat and audio office hours for the things that you're really not ready to share in the group, and workshop tools, courses to help you in the process of finding that balance of parenting in a way that works for you, your child and your family. Hi, welcome Sruti to the podcast. I'm real glad to have you here today.

Thank you so much, Anouk. I'm very excited to be here with you today as well.

So, can you start by introducing yourself and telling us a bit about why you do what you do?

Okay, so my name is Shruti and I'm a parenting coach and I'm based in the Netherlands. I was born and raised in India and I'm actually an international lawyer, but I switched careers around four years ago to become a coach. That's

a, that's a hell of a change.

Yes, because I felt like during COVID when I was with my daughter, I, as a lawyer, I love research, right? So I went through a lot of parenting books so that I'm able to kind of support her. It was a huge change for her. She suddenly wasn't going to preschool. So it was, it was very different for her. And we were also kind of moving home. We were moving from a joint family set up to our own home, so she had some feelings around that. So I wanted to support her, and I wanted to do it from a place of awareness. So I kind of delved deep, and I did this whole research, and then I came across attachment parenting, and I was like, okay, wow, this is life -changing work, and that's what called me into this journey. And then I had my son in 2021, and I noticed a complete shift in my daughter's behaviors, and I was at a complete loss of how I can support her because it was really hard for her. So she absolutely loved him and adored him. However, with us, her behaviors had shifted a lot, and I wasn't proud of how I was showing up,

you know, the lack of sleep and, you know, all those hormones and, you know, constantly feeding this kid and, you know, feeling that guilt to not be able to spend time with her. that's what kind of helped me take that next step to work with a coach myself and then, you know, go on the journey to become a coach. So it was it's been really great and I feel like this is my calling and this is what I want to do. I want to support families because I feel this is important work. It is the most important job and a lot of us are could use support in this area because it's it's not often like I didn't even know what a parent coach was until I had hit a roadblock myself because I was like I know I know what I'm supposed to do but I'm not able to do it you know it's not working yes like I was kind of intellectualizing everything but I was not really able to you know embody it to have that you know integrated within my being so I think doing that work was really important, and I feel like that it's been life transforming for me.

And so now I help parents go on that journey, and I support them so that they are more connected with their kids. Yeah,

that's great. And I think it's like we, there's, I never, I don't want to say like it was better before I hate when people do that, but we did lost something of the community support that

was

supporting parents. And more and more, we are not that supported socially, and we are not that taught how to raise kids, how to take care of kids. There's no courses. We need certification to do things that are much simpler than raising kids, but for kids, like, you're on your own. Yes. There's all of those contradicting advice. If you're reading a lot, I'm guessing you came across a lot of contradicting things.

And yes,

very, very confusing.

Yes. I mean, we live in the age of information. And there is so much of it that it can feel really overwhelming as to what is what what should I be doing? You know, because one website says do this one says don't do this. So it can be it can be really challenging.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think we also don't want to ask for help.

Yes, a lot of us struggle with that because our parents did it. So many people are doing it. So why do we need help? Are we really sucking that much that we have to ask for support? So it's honestly often seen as like, things aren't that bad that I need to work with a coach. So often we Yeah. Go into that trap.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's some guilt over that for sure, like public guilt and society is telling us that we should be able to do it all. And while in fact, lots of people are getting help, they're just not broadcasting it. You Yes. That's right. So today we will be talking about siblings relationship and how parents can like play with that. And I've been asked about sibling a few times by listeners. I'm really happy to have you over to talk about that. And I love that you suggested to talk about that something I honestly cannot really do. Oops, sorry, I just realized I have a notification. Something I cannot really do

from a live experience, I could talk about it from like supporting other parents, but is having kids that one or more kids that are emotionally intense and some that are not mine are all emotionally intense, but on different levels. So can still experience it. Um, yes, but when it's not the case and you have some kids that are emotionally intense or special needs and others that are not, there is automatically some more demand on your time and energy from one child or some of the child. and less from the others. And it's so easy to have an imbalance there and feel guilty. And as we were chatting a bit before, that the kids, like we don't feel guilty for no reason. There

is

a real imbalance that is nobody's fault, but there is an imbalance. So like how can we deal with that and at the same time, like feel less guilty, but also support

or

the kids that is not necessarily as much of the focus. And I think it's kind of a taboo subject. Like we always try to say, I don't have a favorite child. We're not necessarily talking about a favorite child here, but a child that we put more time on,

that's for sure. So Yes. So I think you said a lot of things that I could completely resonate with. And I think to start off with,

I want to say that siblings have this beautiful and complex relationship and it can be so like amazing like they're like best friends on one day and on some days they're like I can't stand you right so sibling rivalry competition comparison insecurities and battles are common in any household any household that has siblings it's going to happen right yes but the problem is that we set ourselves up for failure when we don't expect this, right? We kind of believe that once we have this child, life is going to be beautiful. We're going to be a family of four. It's going to be amazing, right? But like an elder sibling rocks the world of, sorry, a younger sibling rocks the world of a toddler, right? Like of an older sibling, because it's like, it's life changing for them, right? So even in and so this this fact that the rivalry and competition and comparison, if we expect it, we are able to manage it better. That is that is something. And the second thing for

so many things,

right? And it's also important that we parent the child we have and not parent the child we wish we had, right? Because we sometimes can also like, meet our friends in a social setting and see that, oh my God, their siblings are so loving and mine are like at each other's throat every single day, right? So it can feel and bring up a lot of emotion, but it's important to accept our kids and support them in whatever capacity we can, right?

So sibling rivalry and competition is common. It's a part of every household. So even in household where siblings have different neurological profiles and different needs, it can, it, it is very much present. Right. So for example, if there is one child who is autistic or deals with ADHD and the other doesn't like the, it can bring up a lot of things for both, both the kids. Right. And it adds like additional complexity to foster that healthy sibling relationship. And it makes it a bit more work than it would, you the same neurological types, right? So, and having neurodivergent kids or, you know, emotionally deeply feeling kids, it can impact the entire family system, right? Because now, parents are invested and once they have a diagnosis, they're invested in order to find the right treatment and support systems.

And sometimes this can feel the neurotypical child or the, you know, the other siblings a little overlooked, right? And for example, like how autism is like invisible to others, right? Sometimes its impact on the sibling is also invisible, right? It is not apparent, so it doesn't get the attention that it needs sometimes, right? And it can feel really challenging to live with these differences and accept one another when parents kind of don't talk about what is happening, right? And when we talk about it, we kind of open room for communication, we can help both the kids understand what they're needing and what they're feeling, and how we can nurture that bond, right? And the lack of understanding of neurodivergence is something that, you know,

a lot of kids don't get it, right? Like, like, I have a deeply feeling son. So sometimes when he, my daughter even touches his toy or even looks at him, he can be on the floor crying that she looked at me. And my daughter is like, like, I don't get it. I can't even look. So it can feel really challenging for her to understand that he's looking at the world through a completely different lens. He's just come back from school. So my daughter wants to give him all the love. She wants to hug him and kiss him and you know, but he is not ready for it. Right. So how can I talk to her about it in a way where she understands what he's needing. And she also is getting to meet her need. So I am validating, I am accepting her emotions. I know you're full of love for your brother, you missed seeing him. And after a long day, you just want to give him a big hug. And it feels really sad that you're not able to he's getting visibly upset. So how about this that when he comes back for 20 minutes, we are going to just act like he's not there. When he is willing, he will come to you and then you can give him the love he wants. And you can ask him, Ryan, I really feel like giving you a hug. Can I give you a hug? Right? So how can we help our kids understand each other? It does involve a lot of parental involvement and kind of, you know, making things work, right? Like in a lot of households, when the kids are fighting, a lot of parents believe that we should let them figure it out. But in a household where there are kids with different needs, that can be, that can look a little different. So in the beginning, maybe the parent has to be a little more involved in helping both kids understand maybe just, you know, sportscasting, what is happening? Oh, you really wanted that toy, but he's not done playing with it, you know. So,

how about we wait our turn, right? So, so things that may probably come more naturally in a household with same neurological types, it may not be the case in a household with different types, because they are different, right? For example, if a child is autistic, sometimes they can turn things into routines because that helps them reduce stress and, you know, have more predictability in their lives, right? Like, for example, if they know that they're supposed to go to the bathroom, they don't like any other person in that room. So if the second child just enters to brush their teeth, they can say, get out, right? So how can we help the second child also respect and honor his boundaries or her boundaries, right? Because these routines help them function better, right? So like explaining and creating room for their feelings can be very helpful, right? Yeah, yeah.

So it's like, and I think it's, but at the basic is of course it's like understanding and being able to understand each other is always a good idea no matter what, no matter where.

I think that it's very, and like it sounds easy, but it's far from it. It's like we first as parents need to understand what's happening and what they're

going through to then be able

to explain it. So

this

is kind of like, it's the kind of thing that we say like, it's, it should be easy, but

it's not

that easy, you know,

it's absolutely not easy because there are so many emotions at play, not just the siblings emotions. It's also the parents feelings, right? So siblings are navigating basically, jealousy, disappointment, and just navigating who they are, right? Like, because often a younger sibling can feel like, you know, just because my older sibling struggles with XYZ, the rules are different for him than for me, right? Like, if he goes to school, he gets to take a fidget toy to school to keep himself calm. But for the child, it feels like he gets to play with a toy and I don't, right? So how can we explain it to kids in an age -appropriate language and, you know, so that they understand, right? Like, for example, I give this example in my house that daddy wears glasses and mommy doesn't, right? Because daddy needs glasses and mommy doesn't, right? So your brother needs this and you don't, right? No, you don't, you need

something else.

So yes,

you, yeah, you have a different need. Right. So, um, that is something, uh, that we can, you know, try our best to first understand. So we can explain it in a way where, um, there is no like, because a sibling can also feel like because of this kid, I don't get to do X, Y, Z. Right. Yeah. And

I think it's just a feeling and lots of situation when you have emotionally intense kids it's a reality because

you

will do some things because it's just not realistic to for example do three or four activities in the same day or just go to some place that I can tell you when any of my kids are between the age of like two and seven I don't go to restaurants like as little as possible because it's a nightmare it's not fun at all and it's like So you really don't do some stuff. Like it's not just a feeling,

it's a

reality and it's hard.

Yes, so often it can feel really lonely for a sibling because in the sense that they are struggling and they don't know how to explain their frustration, right? Because when they see their friends and peers at school having these interactions with their siblings and having a wonderful relationship or they are on the same swim team

or they're watching their favorite TV shows, Because it can, you know, feel like, why can't I have that, right? So there is like a grief, because when you're having, you're about to have a sibling, there are a lot of excitement. And then if that excitement is not met with, you know, your expectations, it can feel like a lot of grief, like there's grief about the lost relationship, or they're fearful that if they express their emotions, they're kind of rocking the family unit, right? And because they, there are kids who are very aware that my sibling struggles, they're very protective, but they feel like they can't talk to their parents if they're frustrated, because the parents are already going through a lot, right? So they're kind of left alone to deal with all of this, right? And so it's not just the sibling, the parents are going through their own set of emotions because there is only so much time in the day and so much energy,

and they're not able to meet the kid with fewer needs sometimes, right? And they kind of blame themselves that, you know, they feel responsible, like, why can't I be a better parent? Why can't I figure out how to nurture their relationship? Because in that moment, it can really feel easy that these kids can go do things separately, following their needs. And yes, that is important. But if we want to nurture a strong sibling bond, it's also important to bring in that peace where we are all doing something together and it doesn't have to look like what it looks like in other households like it doesn't have to be a board game night if the kids are not into it we can have a system where okay this week you decide what we're going to do together right we can bake a cake we can play with play -doh and next week you decide so this way we are trying

to meet the needs of both kids right so the parents yes they can go through like a whole range of emotions and like feeling like they're not doing enough or they're not doing right by this child or that child, right? So they're not able to invest themselves or engage or get to know that child because they are so consumed by what needs more attention, right? And that is why it's extremely important that parents receive the support they deserve, right? Because the less support a parent has from friends, family and community, the less aware they are, because they're just kind of surviving from one day to the next, right? Parents who have more support, they're more likely to have some level of awareness, they'll be able to provide support for their child, right? So when there is maternal stress, it impacts the stress, like, you know, it has an impact on the kids. And yeah, so the parental unit needs to kind of be attended to, to decrease that stress, right? Yeah. And that can look different for different households, right? Like maybe a parent can facilitate another nurturing relationship for one of the kids, right? Like it doesn't necessarily have to be you. You just need to be securely attached to it.

One, you know, one caregiver who, you know, is responsive to your feelings and your needs, right? So if parents are not able to give that to a child, they can kind of see if there's anybody in their circle, they can nurture that relationship for their child and that person, right? So, of course, it's not the same as the parent -child relationship. Yeah, and like parents feel a lot of guilt about this kind of, you know, stuff because they are overwhelmed and they're dealing with what they're dealing with and guilt is just terrible, right? Yeah,

yeah. And

I think

that's an important point that we can, we don't have to do it all. And when it's the fact that you do have to put more time and energy on some of your kids for whatever reason, it's okay to lean on other people to give another child like it's it won't deter

your

relationship with that child. It will just give that child more of what they need when you're not able to. And like we started with that we used to have a community to do that. but now it's kind of work to find people to do that because it's less natural. It feels hard.

And there are a lot of people who don't really have that village, right? Like, I am an expat in this country, and I don't have my parents here. So sometimes it, you may have to go find your village, right? Like, maybe also looking for something like support groups for those neurotypical siblings who can be connected to peers experiencing similar situations and where they are more comfortable to express their feelings because they're not alone in it anymore. So something like that can be supportive and sometimes where you don't have a village you gotta create one, right? Like there are, I mean the world is smaller because internet has brought us all closer. We can look up for, you know, like -minded people in our community on social media, right? And I mean, it takes time to kind of nurture that bond where you're able to trust your child with somebody else. Yes. But it is possible there. It's not like if you don't have XYZ, you don't have any support, right? So like, because if a child has, you know, just one person in their life, who regards them as special, even if it is not their parent, they can still enjoy the benefits of a secure attachment, right? They can still adjust better in school, have good grades, and you know, thrive in their life. They just need to be attached with that one person, right? And if we are not able to give that to that child, instead of feeling guilty, we can kind of remind ourselves that I am doing my best, I am providing for both their needs the best way I can. And right now, I can maybe nurture a relationship outside of this house for my child, so that, you know, there is somebody who can provide all their needs. Yeah, they have enough,

and it doesn't have to replace the parent relationship, but it can complement it too, because the kids can be attached to more than one person too. So it's,

yeah,

it will be helpful to have someone else. And sometimes it can be like some teachers will take that role, some daycare providers will take back roles and community workers, like there's lots of possibility and we can be just

friends, like

other

parents and parents of friends of our kids, like there's many possibilities, but it's true that

we just need one trusted adult that's invested in the growth and, you know, well -being of this kid, you know, so that's all we need to find. And I think if we try, it is possible to do that and and because it's it's not just like helpful for the child but it's also because you know the first few years of our lives it's they are the formative years and it's not just we're not just learning you know your letter shapes and numbers but we're also learning how to engage in this world right socially and emotionally and some of the experiences you're kind of deprived of if your parents want to protect the interest of the other child so So this will give them the opportunity to kind of work on those skills and, you know, it gets built into their lives as a result of another relationship, right? So where it comes from is not important.

It comes, it's important. It from somewhere and that is what is important, right? And

I would say if it's in a family with other kids, it's probably even better because it gives them the, being able to experience other peer, close peer relationship that are not in school, because in school, like teachers do their best, but there's too many kids to be able to really support a relationship between people like the kids, the kids will have the relationship they have with like, how it develops itself, it's really hard for teacher to really foster relationships, because there are so many kids. So I think that's also a great it kind of allow a sibling like relationship with other kids if, if there is other kids, which is great because it allows them for another experience than what they have at home, which is always great because it broadens the spectrum of what we can we know and experience

in life, which is just good for anybody.

True, true. Absolutely. So I think like, of course, where it is possible to give one on one attention because all kids are wired for connection and even if it is not possible on a day -to -day basis, maybe a realistic goal like, you know what, I want a day in the month where I'm spending time with this kid whose needs are overlooked sometimes more than, you know, yeah, so I want to spend time with this kid and how can I facilitate that? Can maybe the other caregiver be present for the, you know, the neurodivergent child so that I can show up for this kid and then next month we switch, you know, other parent can do that and I do this so it can this can you know help a child feel seen and I think the most important thing is to help both kids understand that they are looking at the world through a completely different lens and you know answer their questions with all honesty the best of your ability with with you know of course in an age -appropriate way and so that you're able to make yourself open for discussion so that they don't feel like this door is closed and I can't talk about it.

Yeah, and just having the space to say, I'm frustrated that I don't get as much attention or energy or time is huge. Just having the right to say that. And yes, it hurts as a parent. It definitely hurt because we don't want that. But yes, it will most likely be the case when we

have

some kids that and even if like in I can say like I have teens in in the life of my, I have a younger one too, but in the life of my kids, some moments I had to give more attention and time to one child and at other moment it was to another child because the needs, like they didn't add the needs in the same level at the same time. And those things will also change. And even if we have a child that is more demanding right now, sometimes the other one might be at another moment.

So is kind of a balance in some ways at some point. Yes.

And I think like, even if we can't solve our children's feelings, I think it's very important to listen, right? Like, what you just mentioned, I had that experience very recently. So my husband was solo, I mean, was traveling for work, and I was solo parenting, and my son had just started going to preschool. So he was having a lot of big feelings. And And like he was, you know, he was on me more than usual. So I was just kind of so busy with him. And then in the evening, when my daughter was brushing, she told me, I wish he didn't exist. And of course, it's really hard to hear it as a parent, because you want them to be like best friends, and you want them to not say mean things about each other. I had, I had the urge to say, No, we don't talk like that. but said, I can imagine it feels really frustrating. Can you tell me more about it?

And then she goes like, because if he wasn't there, maybe then you'd spend more time with me. So you want mama to spend more time with you, right? So I am not doing anything here, but just reflecting back what is coming up for her, right? That's such a simple way where we can show empathy to our kids. All it takes is to kind of, when they share their big emotion, instead of shutting them down to just go, tell me more about it, I want to, I really want to know what's happening, you know, what makes you say this, you seem really upset, did he do something? Did I do something? So then she was more willing to talk about what her needs are, right? When I acknowledge her feeling, that's when her needs come up, right? And then it gives me an opportunity to brainstorm and okay, how can I meet the need? You know, her needs as well. So on Thursday, my son goes to daycare, so I said, okay, how about Thursday, you and me go out to the park for a while, it's just going to be you and me, how will that feel for you?

And then she said, yeah, that'll feel nice. And of course, we can hold boundaries, right, we can say that, I completely understand you want to spend more time with your mom. And I love to spend time with you too. And your brother is having a tough time adjusting in school. So he's needing mommy a little more these days, you know. So I am being 100 % honest. I am not telling her to not have this feeling or not talk about it like this about her brother. And I am being honest about what his needs are. And I'm saying that, saying that I wish he doesn't exist is a little hurtful because what you wish is to spend more time with me. Is that right?

So next time you wanna spend more time with me, what are you gonna say to me, right? So here we are problem solving And we are kind of opening room for dialogue, like, okay, now you have a solution for what have, what do we do next time? And this happens, like, mommy, I want to spend more time with you. And I will drop everything and be there for you. You know, something like that can really like, so, so sometimes our kids can say things like that about our sibling, and we have to just, which is, which is hard,

which is very, very hard, because

it hurts

so much when we're told that. And I, I want to acknowledge that if we react in the not so like, good way in a moment like that, because it hurts and it's hard to do. And when we're not at our best, it's very hard not to.

Yes, we can

always come back to like, it's there's no like definite. It's not because we were not open and available at the in the moment that we cannot go back

later on.

Yes, absolutely. So on that date could have also played out because it was the end of the day, I was solo parenting. I was exhausted. I've carried this other kid for the whole day. I could have just been like, you know what, I don't want to hear this. Just brush your teeth and go to bed. Right? Yeah. And that is also the reality. It's not like I show up perfectly at all times, because we all do that. Yes, we all mess up. And that's just that's just because we're humans, right? So we are going to mess up, right? Even if that was the case, the next day, I'm going to go to her and say, you know what, I didn't like how I spoke to you. I was just really tired. I'm willing to talk to you now. Can you tell me more about

why you said that? Right? So our kids are so gracious, you know, they're so open to working things through. All they need is somebody who can listen to them intently without having these stories in their head. Like I like when she was saying that I I did feel what a mean kid. How can you say that about your little brother, you know? So we have all these stories. So it's very important that we can listen to our kids and you know, give them that room to feel right. Because when we close communication, those feelings just get suppressed, and then they build up, build up, build up, right? And then they have nothing but resentment for the, for the sibling. But when we make space for all those negative feelings, they come out, and then there is room for positive feelings, right? Yes, yes,

true. Yeah, it's true in all settings, like expressing feelings is just so important, but it's sometimes very hard to receive them, old space for them, but it is very key

to

be able to.

And I think the key to that is our own regulation level as a parent. Yes, yes. We always, I

always talk about it. I think

every

episode is ending there and every guest I add on this podcast is going back to regulation and self -care for parents.

So regulation is really important because if you are responding to their stress with your stress, you're just adding chaos. It's not helpful at all. And like for that reason, like I have, I have created a guide, and it's on my website. My website is www .empoweredconnections .nl,

and there's a section called Guides, where I have a guide about self -regulation. And this is something that if parents have older kids, they can try it with them. Like, you know what, sometimes I don't know what to do when I'm having these big feelings, and I'm gonna try something new. So there are like 30 ideas that you can try for 30 days, because it's like self -regulation is also like an exploration process. None of us came into parenting knowing that, like I was really at a loss of why I'm feeling so frustrated. I want to slam all the doors in my house

and I just don't know what to do with this anger, right? I don't know what to do with my frustration and my disappointment and my powerlessness. So I think self -regulation can be such a game changer because when we are regulated, we can give our kids what they need, which is we can listen, we can validate them, we can empathize with them. But if we are not self -regulated, none of that is happening.

No, we won't be able to hold space for their emotion at all because we

don't have any space.

So, yeah, I'm going to put the link

in the show notes

so that parents can. We do need like a quick calming down strategy, like because when I talk to parents in my work, they often tell me that when I go for a walk, I feel calm. But when your kids are fighting, you can't just say, you know what? just wait, I'm going to go. You need something quick that will calm you down enough to respond to the situation, not calm you down all the way, but still calm you down enough to respond with, you know, without exploding. So, so yeah, so it's really important. And the more a parent focuses on that, the more, you know, they can help siblings nurture that strong bond. So authenticity, diversity, lots of dialogue, and one -on -one time wherever it's possible. Yeah, great. I all these things can really help parents support kids with the same or different needs. Yeah,

true.

That's a very good wrap up of everything we talked about. So thank you so much for sharing with us. And other than your freebie, where can people find you? There's your website. Is there any social you're hanging out on?

Yes, so I'm on Instagram, my handle is empowered .connections, so you can find me there. Great. Say hi to me on the DMs, I am always happy to chat with parents.

Great, I'm going to put that too in the show notes. So thank you very much for being with us today.

Thanks a lot, have a nice day.

I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes as soon as they drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast and please leave everything in review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments .ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath, keep going. We're all in this together.

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