056 - How Autonomy and Interests Transform Challenges - With Danika Maddocks

Parenting the Intensity · Oct 22, 2024

Transcript

SPEAKER_00

00:00:00

Welcome to the podcast. Today we will be talking about how to use autonomy and kids interest to help them with their challenges. And to do that we're having Danika over the podcast again. She was here before to talk about giftedness and twice exceptionality. So if you haven't listened to that episode I

SPEAKER_00

00:00:27

and encourage you to do that. Danika is a psychologist and founder of the Gifted Learning Lab where she helps parents feel more confidence raising their intense gifted and twice exceptional kids. So let's welcome Danika over on the podcast. Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solutions and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, Or deep down, you know what you need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on harder days, and permission to do things differently, and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. Are you tired of feeling overwhelmed and uncertain when it comes to parenting your emotionally intense child? Do you often find yourself playing with guilt, fearing that you're not doing enough to help them navigate their intense emotion? You are not alone. Many parents face these challenges and struggle to find the right path forward. But take a deep breath, there's hope. That's why I created the Parenting the Intensity community. Imagine having a clear roadmap tailored specifically to your child's unique needs and your family's reality. Picture feeling empowered and confident in your parenting, knowing that you are providing the support and understanding your child needs. It may seem like an unattainable dream right now, but I'm here to tell you that it is within reach. Come join us for our monthly group support to connect with other parents and get supported with your challenge right now. You also get one -on -one chat and audio office hours for the things that you're really not ready to share in the group, and workshop tools, courses to help you in the process of finding that balance of parenting in a way that works for you, your child, and your family. Welcome, Danika, and I'm glad to have you back over on the podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00

00:03:02

So last time we talked about what is a twice -exceptional or gifted kids. I'm going to link to that episode in the show notes so people can know a bit more about that. Today, we wanted to address kind of the next step, a bit of one of the ways to deal with those children when we have some challenges. So and I think it's fair, like it applies to many kids, I'm guessing not just twice exceptional kids. But I think that's what would be what one of my first questions. So you suggested about autonomy and using their interest. And I think that's great. It's kind of using their strength basically to mitigate the challenges, if you will. Would you say it works for any kids or some specific kids? It's better than others.

SPEAKER_01

00:03:56

That's a great question.

SPEAKER_01

00:03:58

I do think it works for any kids. And actually, in my parent coaching program, I'll tell parents from like, really, these approaches would work for any kids. but we're like tailoring the specifics to like gifted and two -week kids in my program. I do think though like I think any kid would benefit from right like considering autonomy and interests and I think like neurodivergent kids would benefit from those strategies more than your typical kid because of how they're wired right and the reason that I usually focus on those two things is like neurodivergent kids. So that could be gifted, autistic, ADHD, you know, I'd say mostly those categories, although it could be true for like sensory processing or you know, just any way that the brain is wired differently. But particularly for gifted, autistic and ADHDers, they tend to really crave autonomy, like more than your average kid. They want more autonomy and their interests tend to be like such a source of well -being and um you know happiness and engagement for them so I feel like they kind of get like extra benefit from those strategies if that makes sense. Yeah

SPEAKER_00

00:05:10

so it's it's kind it works for every kids but it's like kind of necessary for those kids more. That's

SPEAKER_01

00:05:17

a great way to put it yes I like that yes those kids really need these things to feel good. And leaning into them or figuring out ways to incorporate autonomy and interests into their, their life as a whole, I think can improve their well being, but then you can also incorporate autonomy and interest into tricky tasks and specific situations that you know are hard for them to make them a little less tricky.

SPEAKER_00

00:05:43

Can you give example of that? I'm curious, like, I don't know, for I don't know, morning routine,

SPEAKER_00

00:05:47

getting out of the house, which is such a common struggle, especially when you're going to school and the kids might not really like school, like a lot of our kids don't. Yes. Like, how would you use like, if a child is resisting going to school or getting dressed, get anything more like, I would, I think most parents would be afraid to give more autonomy, because then we're never going to get there, you know, so they

SPEAKER_01

00:06:13

don't want to go. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, they'd be like, gave autonomy they're like, I will stay home today. Exactly. Yes. So how

SPEAKER_00

00:06:23

would you

SPEAKER_01

00:06:23

deal with that? No, that's a good one. That's a good question. Because with autonomy, it is, like, in some ways, it's simple, like, more autonomy is better. But it's really actually quite complicated, I think, to like, well, but how do I do that? Or, and I'd like I tell parents that I work with, because I really work with parents with emotionally intense gifted and twice exceptional kids. But this would probably apply for anyone listening to your podcast with an emotionally intense kid. A lot of the times these kids want autonomy, but not necessarily independence, which is like a little confusing.

SPEAKER_00

00:06:56

Oh, well, how do you do you separate those two? That's

SPEAKER_00

00:07:00

so yeah, so let me explain.

SPEAKER_01

00:07:02

So you know, autonomy, having enough autonomy. So with the morning routine, for example, right, you're right that it's like for a lot of kids, if you just gave them full autonomy over the morning routine, like they're not intrinsically motivated to do the morning routine. They don't necessarily wanna go to school. So that would be a place where leaning in, like, so autonomy and intrinsic motivation are really linked to each other and research shows that, right? Like the more autonomously motivated you are to do something, you know, the more intrinsically motivated you're gonna feel or the more autonomy you get, the more intrinsically motivated you can feel. But that's tricky, because it's like our kids are not inherently interested in getting ready to go to school.

SPEAKER_01

00:07:43

But what you can do is, so actually in those cases, I'll suggest giving a lot more hands -on help, knowing that like our kids don't really wanna do it and it's often hard for them if they have any executive functioning differences or sensory sensitivities, things like getting dressed and going through all the tasks of the morning

SPEAKER_01

00:08:01

is kind of a lot. So you can give hands -on help, so they're not independent, they're doing it with your help, but you can also be flexible about how it's done and give them choices, right? So maybe, and the choice that's helpful depends on the kid. So I'm trying to think like for my kid, like my kid likes to watch videos while we help him get dressed, right? He's five. So instead of saying like, okay, it's time to get dressed. You need to turn off your videos and we need to do it this way. I'm just flexible about like, you can keep watching your videos

SPEAKER_01

00:08:33

and just stick out your legs so I can put the pants

SPEAKER_00

00:08:36

on, you know, like,

SPEAKER_01

00:08:38

so that's a way to give some autonomy and flexibility where he still feels in control of his body, pretty much, you know, and in control of the situation, like, he can keep doing the thing he likes, but I'm going to help him get dressed.

SPEAKER_00

00:08:49

And would you say, like, how old would you, because I'm, like, I'm guessing lots of parents would say, yeah, but we cannot dress kids until they're 14 years old. Like, at what points you let go of that hands -on help?

SPEAKER_01

00:09:05

It really depends on the kid. I do have, I've worked with parents with teenagers who help their teenagers get dressed in the morning to go to school, because they know like, you hate going to school. This is really hard for you, right?

SPEAKER_00

00:09:17

And

SPEAKER_01

00:09:17

you have ADHD, so keeping track of all the tasks to get out the door, it's like, it's just easier. And some parents, like what parents of teens find a lot, Is like usually they haven't been giving that hands -on help because

SPEAKER_00

00:09:29

there's a

SPEAKER_01

00:09:29

societal message of like they need to be independent That's not appropriate. They're too old

SPEAKER_01

00:09:33

And usually what they find is like as they offer that help their teen is really grateful Usually and accepts it and then at some point the teen feels Autonomous to say like you can stop now. I can do that. Like I'm I'm I got it, you know But then but then they're actually it's almost like you're creating an opportunity for them to find their autonomous motivation right? Where it's like, they're not. And so finally the teen is kind of like, actually, I prefer getting myself dressed. Thank you. Or like, I got this now. And that's usually what has happened with the families I've

SPEAKER_00

00:10:07

worked with.

SPEAKER_01

00:10:09

And so I think that's very counterintuitive for parents is that like by giving hands -on help, which is kind of the other big theme I talk about is like providing support for things. You know, your kid actually usually becomes more independent in the long run. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

00:10:24

And

SPEAKER_01

00:10:25

just kind of challenging the, I think there's a lot of pressure in our society, this kind of neuro normative talk that like, you know, this is, these are the appropriate ways to do things. There's one right way to do things. If you're doing it wrong, you know, if you're doing it differently, you're doing it wrong. And just the fact that like a lot of neurodivergent and emotionally intense kids do really benefit from more help. And that's actually going to give them more independence in the long run because they're not going to be overwhelmed all the time.

SPEAKER_00

00:10:53

SPEAKER_01

00:10:53

sometimes it's just as a parent, like you talk about this a lot in the podcast, it's like feeling permission to do things differently than other their parents or then the way you're being pressured to do it. So that's a way that you can give autonomy and support at the same time. But even with like another example would be like for kids who have or like don't like to eat certain amounts of, certain types of food or who are selective eaters or eating is hard for them, it's kind of stressful. One example would be like,

SPEAKER_01

00:11:26

they may not need hands -on help eating, but you could just be way more flexible about what they eat in the morning. It's like, if you want a waffle with syrup and that's all you want for breakfast, great. You like if you're

SPEAKER_00

00:11:36

gonna

SPEAKER_01

00:11:36

eat and then get out the door, instead of being like, you have to eat your fruit first or you have to eat this, you know, just being, giving more autonomy around that. You know, especially at high stress times would be an example of how you could incorporate it. Or for sometimes the kid could do something like they can brush their teeth on their own, but they would, they'd rather brush while watching YouTube than brush while standing at the sink.

SPEAKER_01

00:11:59

Okay, if they can do that without making a mess, great. You know, and kind of be flexible there. Yeah, and then in terms of like, incorporating interests in the morning routine, some examples of what parents have tried at my program and found successful is like there are a couple of families who had little kids who really loved like the going a specific route on the way to school or who were really interested in maps and things like that you know it's like okay well if you can get ready by this time we'll have enough time to go the route you like and even though they were ADHDers and focusing was hard that gave them motivation to be like I can focus on this so that I can get the route I want. I'm on it." Right? Or for some kids, it's like, if you get ready early, you can have time playing your video game before school, or you can watch the YouTube videos about the thing you're interested in. And that's a way to incorporate the interest to help with something that's hard in the morning. If

SPEAKER_00

00:12:53

that

SPEAKER_01

00:12:54

makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

00:12:54

Yeah. That leads me to another question, definitely based on lived experience. When kids is starting something that they are really interested about because we have time in the morning, then they need to stop that thing. It can be very challenging because they're really into that activity or that topic or whatever it is. It can be Legos or a YouTube on something or whatever it is they are engrossed in their activity and stopping is kind of very hard. Do you have any suggestion?

SPEAKER_00

00:13:31

Like, should we just not do it for those kids or there's other ways to incorporate their interests till?

SPEAKER_01

00:13:40

Yeah, no, that's a good question. And I think for most like neurodivergent kids, well, you know, that's just the way their brain works is like things that are interesting, right? It's like, well, they really pull in, like, you know, most of the brain resources go towards the thing that is interesting and it's hard to pull away. So it's hard to answer, because I would say, like, when I work with families, we do a lot of tweaking and trying different things and figuring out what works or doesn't, because I will say, like, it ends up looking a little bit different in every family. There's no one right way to do it. But I can give some examples of ways I might think about that, because that's true. It's like most, a kid who's highly motivated by their interests is also going to have a hard time stopping their interests, Right? That's, I think that kind of goes hand in hand. But you could see some kids find, some parents find that when they give their kids more flexibility and more time with interests, the kid feels kind of like, that was great and I got a lot of control and my needs really got met, so now I'm more motivated to be like, it's time for school, I understand, I'll go. Not all kids, but some, you know, will respond with kind of like, okay, I got that time, and that was great, now I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01

00:14:51

For my kid, he uses videos or games kind of like through the morning routine getting ready, and then I give him my phone so he can keep watching videos on the way to school, and

SPEAKER_00

00:15:05

then

SPEAKER_01

00:15:05

it's relatively easy for him to transition when he's at school, although often he will wait until like another kid arrives and go in with them, right? But it's sort of like I experimented, and it's like that doesn't cause problems for us at school, so we just use it through the whole transition, You know, and some interest could be taken in the car or things like that. Some interest can be offered just in the car, like listening to a podcast or choosing the music or things like that if people are commuting that way. Sometimes you can talk with your kid about it and be like, hey, I'd love you to get time doing Legos in the morning and I'm worried it'll be too hard to leave.

SPEAKER_01

00:15:42

Do you have any ideas about that? You know, or like, we should think about that and think, figure out if there's a way it could work.

SPEAKER_00

00:15:48

And then

SPEAKER_01

00:15:48

the kid can have some autonomy to say like, no, no, no, I can make it work. And here's how I'll do it,

SPEAKER_00

00:15:54

you know, and then it may or may not happen. But like they're,

SPEAKER_01

00:15:57

they're kind of building that skill set to think through it.

SPEAKER_00

00:16:01

And would say it probably increases the chance of it working if they came up with, yes, it will work, I'm going to be able to sometimes it won't, but I guess it increases the likelihood.

SPEAKER_01

00:16:13

I think so. Because yeah, and even just the buy in

SPEAKER_01

00:16:16

to try it right because yeah then they're kind of like making a deal with you like okay we'll make it work this way i'll show you so yes yeah and sometimes our kids will say that they can do things and then they can't you know they don't anticipate how hard it's going to be

SPEAKER_00

00:16:30

for

SPEAKER_01

00:16:30

them to stop or something so i think just knowing to like i'll say to parents i work with like i wouldn't see that as a failure i think you're still you're still there along with your kid as a team figuring out what works and what doesn't right and that

SPEAKER_00

00:16:45

like you kind

SPEAKER_01

00:16:45

of tried something and then you learned like oh it's really actually too hard to stop like and

SPEAKER_00

00:16:50

now we know um

SPEAKER_01

00:16:51

so let's try something different you know

SPEAKER_00

00:16:54

yeah i think i love that it's like not framing it as failing it's just a learning process and it's helping the kids know themselves better too yeah at the same times um and yeah i can definitely see like i often have to remind my youngest like i know you want to do that, but you won't be able to stop if you do that right now, or you won't, like, this is just too hard for you to not do is to tempt things. So we won't put you in that situation. Because if we do, it's just you're gonna, You're

SPEAKER_01

00:17:28

gonna feel really upset when

SPEAKER_00

00:17:30

it's time to go.

SPEAKER_00

00:17:32

Exactly. setting you up for failure, because we know that it's too hard for you right now. So let's try something else. Right,

SPEAKER_01

00:17:39

right. Exactly. Yeah. Or like you you dislike that so much when it becomes time or something yeah yeah so

SPEAKER_00

00:17:45

those

SPEAKER_01

00:17:46

are some examples yeah

SPEAKER_00

00:17:47

yeah of course and i think it's kind of easier to understand the concept with examples because it like just saying giving autonomy is like okay yeah but then yeah and i another

SPEAKER_01

00:17:59

i go go on go on oh i was just thinking like because another way to think about the interests to like if you if you do suspect that it would be too hard to have because it almost sounds like a reward right of like okay you finish this and you're rewarded with time, you can incorporate it into the process itself too. So it could be like you can watch the videos

SPEAKER_01

00:18:18

while you're eating breakfast or something like that. But it can also be something as simple as like a number of the parents I've worked with, they just talk with their kids about their interests in the morning and then the kid is like happily chatting about that while they get dressed. They kind of have their parents company, right? Like it might be like, hey, what's going on in the Warriors Cats books these days?

SPEAKER_01

00:18:39

or like letting the kid just kind of tell you about the video game that they're into. So it can just be talking, instead of doing the thing itself, but they're getting to kind of engage and share information with the parent. And so it can be kind of nice time too. And it can even be something, I'm thinking of other examples that are like, you don't have to stop them, right? Where it's like, well, then you're just conversing and you can keep talking. Some kids really love like role play and fantasy. So, you know, like with my kid when he's little, it's like, we'll have like a puppet, like, oh, show bear how you get dressed. You know, he's never seen it.

SPEAKER_01

00:19:17

Or a kid might like to pretend that they're a baby animal while they get ready or something. And then you're still incorporating their interests, but it's more just part of the task. Or like, let's see who can get ready fastest. You know, some kids love to race. I would say always let them win,

SPEAKER_00

00:19:33

you know, like do that. But

SPEAKER_01

00:19:35

you can kind of incorporate other, just any silly anything they like like and it's fun for them into something that would otherwise be kind of boring or stressful or just a series of tasks so

SPEAKER_00

00:19:45

yeah yeah and i would say like sometimes it gets tiring though as a parent to always come up with those yes

SPEAKER_01

00:19:53

yes yeah and sometimes it's this cost benefit analysis too of like it's like well that's tiring but so is a meltdown like

SPEAKER_00

00:20:03

so how much like

SPEAKER_01

00:20:04

where do i choose to use my energy yeah

SPEAKER_00

00:20:07

which one do i i can i tackle this morning right

SPEAKER_01

00:20:12

and kind of like where's my kid at because for my kid it's like he's in a different space every morning so some mornings he needs a lot of support encouragement and play and other mornings he's more independent you know so kind of reading like how much How do I have to kind of, I often think of it as like finessing him through these transitions or is he kind of doing okay?

SPEAKER_00

00:20:34

I think that can throw parents off a lot because I can think of my youngest sometimes and my older two were just basically the same. Like some morning she can clean her room, make her bed and get dressed in two minutes. And other morning getting dressed would take 15 minutes with hands -on support. And like, what the? I know you can do it. you've done it yesterday, why this morning you cannot even choose your clothes?

SPEAKER_01

00:21:00

Right, right. Yeah, that fluctuating capacity is really confusing. But at least for like, neurodivergent kids, it's just like, part of being neurodivergent,

SPEAKER_00

00:21:10

right? It's

SPEAKER_01

00:21:11

like, but it is confusing. And I hear from parents all the time where it's like, I know they can literally do it because I've seen them. It's like, but they can't do it today. Because they're tired, they're hungry. Someone said something mean to them yesterday. And now they're remembering it. You know, it's like they're so sensitive to these internal and external stressors. So, yeah, I really think of it as like, it's almost like taking the emotional temperature or like figuring out like how much regulation capacity

SPEAKER_01

00:21:37

my kid has in the morning, right? To be like, okay, how much do I need to support this today?

SPEAKER_00

00:21:42

Which is,

SPEAKER_01

00:21:42

it is hard. Cause it's like, it's just not always the same. You can't just be like, great, we got our routine set up and it works. And usually parents will be like, so, you know, getting ready to go on the favorite route worked for three weeks and now they don't care and

SPEAKER_00

00:21:56

now we need

SPEAKER_01

00:21:56

to think of something else and that's really common too of like I'm not interested in that anymore I need the next thing.

SPEAKER_00

00:22:02

Yeah yeah finding new things and I think it like what you said is good it's really great like it can be very exhausting to always come up with new ideas but what do we prefer like the temper tantrum and conflict or using our brain to come up with new ideas and I think sometimes it's like it's easy to slip into making things happen and slipping into the tantrum and conflict because it's just the way we used to do things. And we often slip to that very easily. And

SPEAKER_01

00:22:37

And

SPEAKER_01

00:22:37

mornings are stressful for us as parents too, right? It's like, we're tired and stressed and I think, yeah, I like when I work with parents really trying to just like reduce the kind of the self, like the talk in our head too that we're like, we're doing it wrong, or our kids are being difficult, or like, you know, in some ways, just an acceptance of like, this is hard, right? Or like, I wish I didn't have to do this, and yet I am gonna do this. And, you know, and also thinking like, doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong that your kid has a hard time

SPEAKER_00

00:23:07

in the morning, right? It's just that like, the

SPEAKER_01

00:23:09

morning is really hard. It makes sense, you know, for them for these different reasons.

SPEAKER_01

00:23:13

So kind of acknowledging that like, it's difficult and it's not a failing, because I think sometimes that comes into of like, This should not be that hard or my kids should be doing this or I must be fucking it up, you know Like it's like nope. Nope, but that's it's none of that. It's just difficult Yeah, so being gentle with ourselves Yeah,

SPEAKER_00

00:23:32

I'll say to you like

SPEAKER_01

00:23:33

you can also if possible if there's ways that you can engage with your kids that also feel a Little fun or relaxing or something to you,

SPEAKER_00

00:23:41

you know, if it's like

SPEAKER_01

00:23:42

oh like Like it's like I'd love to talk with here that about the animal facts they know or you

SPEAKER_00

00:23:49

know

SPEAKER_01

00:23:49

sometimes you can figure out a way that it feels less stressful to you too and that

SPEAKER_00

00:23:53

can

SPEAKER_01

00:23:53

be helpful right

SPEAKER_00

00:23:54

yeah

SPEAKER_01

00:23:55

for sure yeah

SPEAKER_00

00:23:56

great is there anything else you wanted to add before we finish um

SPEAKER_01

00:24:02

i guess the one thing is like because we talked a lot about kind of incorporating autonomy and interests and like specific activities but

SPEAKER_00

00:24:10

i like

SPEAKER_01

00:24:10

to think of it big picture too yeah um and then you and i were talking about this before we started recording

SPEAKER_01

00:24:15

this idea that when your kid is having a hard time or when they're really emotionally intense, it's easy to kind of over -focus on what's hard and to think like, I gotta fix this thing that's hard or we have to help them with the thing that's hard. But then you just spend most of their time focused on the hard stuff.

SPEAKER_00

00:24:33

And

SPEAKER_01

00:24:33

sometimes if you can find the things that are fun and that they're interested in and they enjoy and that feel good, and if you expand their time doing those things then they're just spending more time feeling happy and regulated and interested you know and that that's a way to improve their overall well -being too which is kind of counterintuitive I think right

SPEAKER_00

00:24:55

because we can be like we

SPEAKER_01

00:24:56

gotta focus on these problems and we have to go to all these appointments but it's like oh but they also need time to just like play the video game they love or do crafts or be silly um and that that is a really healing helpful whole thing for them also.

SPEAKER_00

00:25:11

Yeah. And that might decrease the need of focusing on what's going wrong because we are increasing the wellbeing and the regulation so that some of other things might just maybe not disappear but the intensity will lower and they might even disappear in some instance.

SPEAKER_01

00:25:29

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that parents do see that happen, right? Because their kid overall is feeling less stressed and some of the difficulties just go away or decrease and

SPEAKER_00

00:25:39

it's really nice. So, yeah. Definitely. Good. Good reframe. Thank you. Yeah. Um, so where can parents find you?

SPEAKER_00

00:25:49

And I'm realizing that I might have forgotten to ask you at the beginning and I don't remember anymore like what you're doing. So. Oh, sure. I think I forgot.

SPEAKER_01

00:25:59

I can say it all right now.

SPEAKER_00

00:26:01

Yeah. If you can address it all. I'm like, I'm going to put it in the show notes and I'm referencing people to the other episode you were on. But yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01

00:26:10

No, that's great. Yeah. So I have a coaching company called the Gifted Learning Lab where I help and support parents who have emotionally intense or sensitive gifted or twice exceptional kids. And kind of like a lot of my career has been around that. And there's a lot of free resources. So the website is giftedlearninglab .com. And there's a free weekly email I do called Gifted Lab Notes with just parenting ideas and tips. And

SPEAKER_00

00:26:35

have - I enjoy your emails.

SPEAKER_01

00:26:38

Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I love to hear from people when things resonate. It's kind of like a little corner of the internet, I guess, or like email space where it's like, I feel like, it's just great to be able to talk about what it's like to parent gifted and two week kids.

SPEAKER_01

00:26:52

And there's just not a lot of space that's devoted to that. So it's fun for me. And I hear from people that, yeah, it's nice to feel less alone. So, yeah, folks can find the free emails there that they can sign up for. And I have a free email mini course about reducing power struggles. And one of the emails is about incorporating autonomy and so as a way to reduce power struggles

SPEAKER_00

00:27:13

too. Yeah, that's a great resource. We'll link to all of that in the show notes. So thank you very much for being here. Thank you for having

SPEAKER_01

00:27:21

me. Yeah, it's great to talk. Thanks.

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00:27:27

I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes as soon as they drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast and please leave everything in review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments .ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath, keep going, we're all in this together. you