Episode 14: Barbara Manning
The Who Cares Anyway Podcast ·
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Transcript
SPEAKER_03
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When I was 14 and I first got a guitar, I slept with my guitar.
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I took it everywhere.
SPEAKER_05
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Hello and welcome to episode 14 of the Who Cares Anyway podcast. My guest on this episode is Barbara Manning. And I could say that given her distinguished recording career both as a solo artist and
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with 28
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Day, World of Pooh, San Francisco Seals, Barbara Manning and the Go -Luckies, and others, I could say that she needs no introduction, but I should at least give some introduction for this interview. And in doing that, I'll begin by acknowledging that while she does feature in the book, most prominently in the chapter on World of Pooh, but also in a couple of later chapters, you could certainly make the case that there's more to be said about Barbara Manning and her music, even in this particular era. I certainly second -guessed that, so it was with that in mind that I was very, not just grateful, but actually relieved to hear from her this summer that she had actually read the book and seemed to like it and so we had kind of a further exchange at that point and then I also noticed that she had been out touring and performing more this summer than in recent years. Now obviously there are reasons why in certain recent years people wouldn't be out performing so much but in her case in particular there was a sort of maybe semi retirement that's kind of hinted at in a in an interview that I'll link to as I refer back to it from a 2015 or so where it sounded like that phase of her career maybe had had ended but again that the happy ending here is that she has been out performing more and will be doing more dates on the East Coast this fall November opening for a Codeine and I'll link to those dates in the show notes but anyway with all that in mind I thought why not see if she would be willing to appear as a guest and so this is a sort of follow -up to the interview we did back in 2016 for the book. One thing we didn't talk about in 2016, because I don't think this recording had come out, but that would be the Chico Days era. Chico Days, D -A -Z -E, a compilation or collection that is up on Bandcamp that I think includes recordings she did with a few different bands while she was in Chico in the 2000s, maybe into the early 2010s while she was going back to school and sort of reorienting after taking a sabbatical, one might say, from doing music full -time. But anyway, we talk about that and sort of some of the challenges involved in life after full time music making and all of that. And so with all that out of the way, let's go ahead and get into the interview with the one and only Barbara
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Manning.
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Funny to be the straight person amongst the freaks. I really I enjoy the fact that I get an opportunity to be that person. But honestly, it wasn't very popular to be the singer -songwriter in the art groups. And I think in some ways the people who are working with me gave me more credibility because, like for instance, having Melanie Clarin on the drums, just she's so great and everyone loves her and she's in so many other bands. So she comes with so much credibility of her own. And if she's giving me the time of day with her time, then it makes me sound better. Or Brentley Pusser from Three Days Double, having him on lead guitar, that just made me better. So yeah, I sort of, I guess those are my friends and so it made sense that I ended up playing with them, and that helped me do the singer -songwriter thing, rather than making up a persona.
SPEAKER_06
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Yeah, I was wondering if you had any, you know, reactions, I'm not trying to make this into a book report, but if you had any reactions about, you know, acting, not acting, channeling.
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Or being authentic while not being authentic.
SPEAKER_06
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Yeah, so all those, all those things.
SPEAKER_04
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I think that it was helpful for me to read it because it put some things into perspective, because usually I would be looking back at those times as I'm in the center of it. And in this book, I'm not the center, and it also highlighted things that maybe I wasn't aware of at the time. But I can give you some points that I mean moments that I was really connecting with it was the very day that I moved to San Francisco. I had $50 and 50 cents. and I was coming from Chico, but it was definitely a time when I would have been at a soup kitchen, no problem. Like that would have been, it was young and adventuresome and I just thought I'm not afraid of being poor there,
SPEAKER_04
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et cetera, et cetera. And that very day I met a friend of a friend and they took me to a cool house where I ended up meeting some other people. But I remember everyone was talking about the last show of Trial was happening that night. And it would have been in 86. And I didn't know who they were talking about at all. And I didn't know the sleepers and I didn't know about the farm yet. And all of that I got shown, but it was just kind of neat to start your book that way because that's how I started San Francisco, learning about them first. But I didn't like hang out with them or anything. I just ended up being aware of that, that scene going on. It was so funny to think about the time is when you first moved there and you just want to jump into a scene, but you don't know where it is. I don't know what I mean. And then later, of course, so different. Like, everyone knew how to find me.
SPEAKER_06
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I was reading a different interview from maybe about six or seven years ago, a very thorough one that looked like a written questionnaire, but it mentioned that it asked about the worst times and one of them you said was 1985 and I'm guessing that was the tail end of Chico and the breakup of 28th Day.
SPEAKER_04
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Yeah, I think I was really thinking about the breakdowns of, yeah, the things that when When you feel like the rug is pulled out from under you or whatever your reality is ends. So that was hard because I was young, 1920 or whatever it was, oh wait, I guess I was 20, but I still didn't have the wherewithal to make any money or knew how to even be a person in society because I wasn't really raised the normal way. Like my mom is very antisocial and lived in far, far in the woods and definitely raised me and my sister with some beliefs that we had to rearrange and think about again when we're older. So what I got when I was 1920, I was not ready to survive yet. I didn't know how to survive. I just I just knew I wanted to play music. That was all I cared about, really. And then when I think about it, how how did I become an adult? It's like it feels like it took a really long time to become an adult for me. And now I am. I'm an adult for sure. So
SPEAKER_06
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you do arrive there and you I don't know how much that reputation preceded you, or how much, not
SPEAKER_04
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at all? No, I would say the first, I didn't have a reputation except, you know, being a bad punk rock girl or something, but you're getting into trouble,
SPEAKER_04
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but I didn't have any reputation until after 28 Day, because we, I mean, I'd never done anything that anyone would have really known or heard about, 28 days, my first thing to have been, you know, to get some notoriety from, for sure. We were really popular amongst our own age group, mostly underage kids that didn't really have any other outlet and it was super fun, you know, for a while there was very poppy and Power Poppy, which I just adore. And then we got a little more into Sonic Youth and things like that. So our songwriting got a little more complicated, but by the time we were working on those songs, we broke up. So we didn't do the second album that we were talking about doing.
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Okay.
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I was thinking this might be a little bit of a stretch then, but I was thinking about someone, I don't know, like Alex Chilton or somebody who has, you know, whether it was the box tops or, or then big star, and he seemed like he was constantly not outrunning his past, but trying to like wrestling with the expectations that people had of him. And I just remember, I mean, there was that newspaper article that Brandon sent me and I think I quoted from it. It was like your homecoming the way the newspaper build it up in, I guess, Chico, Chico,
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he hated us.
SPEAKER_06
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And it was that really bad of you. And that was, but then I've seen similar things later on when just looking at people writing about it, your music, they'd say, wish she was doing music more like this. And it's not always 28 day, it might be some other later stage. But I didn't know, like, I'm still not actually clear on how much that followed you apart from that that homecoming show, or if you had people coming up to you and and saying, why aren't you still doing this? Or in the 90s, why aren't you still doing scissors or something? I don't know.
SPEAKER_04
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Like Robin Hitchcock did that. Like he came to see me play, but I was playing with World of Poo and he did not care for World of Poo. And he said, you should go solo. That's what he said. I was like, well, this is what I'm doing right now. I think that it's kind of normal for people to kind of own something they love. And it's like, I love Van Gogh, let's put it that way. I feel like I own Starry Night. But I don't own it, but in my world, I own it. And see it, every time I see that image, I feel familiar with it. It's mine. I it so well. I've stared at it a lot. but I can't change it. I can't like tell them, go, okay, well, I think you should try version in pink or something. Look, that's not possible. And so I think it's normal for people to get really attached to a sound that pleases them, but they just can't hold somebody back in their art. I can give you a good example where I've felt like I've done that, where I went to see Sufjan Stevens, a long time ago now, maybe 12 or so years ago, maybe longer because it was I knew my husband. But I went to see him in Oakland and when I went, it was very disco. It was, I his period of disco discoality. And I was so disappointed and I wanted him to do what I wanted him to do, you know, same exact situation. But you just have to let them do what they're doing.
SPEAKER_04
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And then recently I heard something by him and I went, oh, when is that record coming out? And I just I already bought it in advance, you know, because he's now doing, you know, he's in a mode of doing quiet, thoughtful, more focused things. And that sounds like something I'd enjoy, I think. Not that I don't like disco.
SPEAKER_06
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I remember reading in that interview about how the Bee Gees were a first, were a first portal into popular
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culture. Something I liked that my mom didn't like. Something I liked that my sister and I both really liked. And I was really fascinated by their early albums of Bee Gees first album, which is called Bee Gees first. It's a great record and there's so many songs on there that I've thought about covering. I'm going to eventually probably do something like that, some Bee Gees song from that album. They're really good. They're really strange lyrics and they're beautiful and It's
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One thing
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I don't think I talked so much about with you was Lowdown Studios and Greg Freeman. And what comes to mind when you think about Lowdown Studio, either in terms of visuals or just
SPEAKER_04
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memories? So many things. I remember first time going there, it wasn't very pretty because he had allowed, Greg had allowed a lot of bands to draw all over the walls. And so it just had that really just sharpie, graffiti, mess, not, not even gorgeous graffiti, just bad graffiti, just, it was just look trashy and terrible. But as he, but you know, I mean, who cares, though, right? Once you're there, it doesn't matter. He made a lot out of a little or he made a little, I know. Yeah, he made a lot with little. He didn't have that much at the very, when I first went in there. And as and but as we would use him, because we had Matador, Three Thinking Fellers, and myself, and well, I don't
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know about the other bands, but I was able to pay him, you know, more, a little maybe a little more generously than he would ask for normally. And I also cater it, make sure he is taken care of, you know. And so he was able to not just for me, but from other people like that, having a budget, let's just put it that way, you had a budget. He was able to buy more material, more rack stuff and, and more toys. And, and then he did this really nice renovation where he, he rebuilt the sound room and the, and the control room. And it looked a lot better. He, it just looked nicer. It like classier looking. And it kind of started feeling in that way, like it was our kind of our not a clubhouse, but definitely something that we felt, you know, it was a very much attached to. That's, that's where I wanted to record. And occasionally, Brandon would find another place for us to record and we would try it out. And we put a couple things out on like a couple tracks or something that were done at the Army Street Studios or something like, you know, some other place.
SPEAKER_04
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But it just didn't feel the same. And Greg is, I kind of feel like he could be anywhere to record. He's got this amazing ear, incredible taste of music, and a really good ear for for things. One of the things that we always disagreed upon is how loud my vocal should be. And I think that might just have been the style of the times. But a lot of times, I wish I could understand my lyrics a little better. Maybe it's just because I'm losing my hearing. But like, I kind of think the vocals could be a little louder, because of what the kind of speakers they get played through or whatever. Vocals are so important. Not to be a diva about it, but it's the melody and the words and the story. But there was something about being an indie rocker too. It's okay to be in the mix somewhere.
SPEAKER_06
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You know, I have a friend who I just, you know, casually play music with or occasionally record and we have this kind of, there's this kind of thing where I will be, even though I listened to a lot of instrumental music, when the lyrics are there, they're really important. And like, I don't like them to be arbitrary. And I don't like them to just be sloppy, or just insert a cliche. And he'll say, you know, it's more about the sound. I think that comes from a lot of I've listened to him too, but Husker do or stuff like that, where it's more buried, and you can't you can only really hear these fragments. But I feel like, I think, I'm siding with you here, that when the lyrics are part of it, yeah, they should, they matter.
SPEAKER_06
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And I think you talked about that, and didn't quote this portion of it, but in our interview from 2016, you talked about how over time you came to sort of, I don't know if you said, you didn't call it a revelation necessarily, But it was like you came to some sort of realization about how important that was. And certainly... I know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_04
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In 2014, I think is when it happened.
SPEAKER_04
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Yeah. It's like a cathartic moment about how you have to deliver your lyrics. And how you have to give live. You have to give. It can't just be sung. You have to sing it like it's coming to you right now. And that was a big change for me, definitely. And now that's how I do it.
SPEAKER_06
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Yeah, and I'm scrolling back through it here. I'm thinking, okay, so I'm going to read something that you said here.
SPEAKER_00
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No, I think I was a real amateur when I was a 28th day and I don't think I was a good performer. I think I wasn't thinking audience back then at all and later as World of Two started with me, that was my next band, I don't think I understood the audience thing either then. Did we generate a great persona for the crowd? No, I don't think so. I don't think I was trying to do that. But I think it came later with the SF Seals, where I started to realize that I'm getting these really big crowds of people who are really into the songs. Let's make those songs as alive as possible. You know, make them as fresh as possible.
SPEAKER_00
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And I really, really enjoyed playing live at that point. Like, I really got into playing live. I think it was a big change in learning how to sing, too, because I don't think I sang that well before. And I got more into it and started, like, listening to people I loved and understanding what really resonated with me was realizing that you have to pronounce the words like you're saying them the first time, you just have to. And timing is important with your singing. You know, it's not just putting out the words within a certain chunk of time, it's like every syllable should be hanging on a note.
SPEAKER_06
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Well, I quoted you for three minutes and then asked you to say something and I don't know what I expect you to say.
SPEAKER_04
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I just remember, like I like the fact I was talking about it as in with the SFCLs because I do remember having some weird revelations during that period too, because there was this time when I played at the Khyber Pass in Philadelphia, and we were opening for a pretty well -known, loud, grungy band that really didn't have anything to do with us. and I was having a pretty bad day and I was very moody, I'm sure. So I remember at that show that I decided I'm not gonna give anything to the audience. And so I just sang and I played, but I didn't get it in my eyes or my face. And I didn't turn to the band and smile at them. And I didn't tap my foot around or get my hair all wet with sweat. I just remember just not giving. And somebody said, that's the best show they'd ever seen of me. And I thought that is such a great slap in the face right now, because I should never not give. If I'm up on the stage, I need to give. That's what performing is. And if people are gonna take the time to come,
SPEAKER_04
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they need to see that. Now, I was thinking, Will, that you were going to say that it isn't really a very true statement what I said about singing, because there's so many styles of singing, and you wouldn't want to take that away from, let's say, something like airy and quiet and lilting and soft and almost mesmerizing or gentle or whatever. So yeah, there's all sorts of styles of singing. For me though, I know that I have to do it. I to, like, that's just my, my favorite kind of music is kind of that it's urgent. Something that's like kind of gives you that, that push, like you feel like you really do want to open that beer and chug it down,
SPEAKER_04
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or you really do feel excited about something that you could pogo, you know? Like, that's my favorite music, even though I like other things, too. But if I'm going to make music, most of the time I want it to have energy in it.
SPEAKER_06
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Yeah, that whole portion, you know, one of the really challenging things is I was trying to whittle this thing down to a mere, you know, the mere doorstop that it is was how much interesting stuff I had to cut. But I thought that the whole section where we were talking about think audience, you brought that idea of think
SPEAKER_04
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audience. And said that. I want a sign that just says that.
SPEAKER_06
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But so I said, so my kind of counterpoint, which you had a good response to, and I won't make this whole thing a replay, But I said that I was talking about how I often liked these experiences of being kind of baffled by a band where, you know, they weren't pandering and you kind of
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have
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to figure out what they're doing. And I mentioned the frogs the first time I saw them. And your counterpoint was, but do you still not think that they're thinking audience and that it's just another way of thinking audience. And you're still giving something out. still projecting something or something.
SPEAKER_04
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Yeah, there's a very weird, wonderful, but totally weird video on YouTube of me playing with a bunch of people from Edinburgh, Scotland, who are there in the noise in the experimental music scene. And they agreed to play with me. and I'm playing as glands of external secretion without Seymour Glass. And, but I have a six piece band. There's like six of us.
SPEAKER_04
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And I thought audience very much throughout it, but I also was freaking them out too. Like one of the things I did was I went, the venue was in an art gallery and you could see all these, like it looked towards these windows that went out to the street. And so I went outside and looked through the windows at my audience. And then I took out these colored pencils and started drawing on my face. Through the window they could see it, but not everyone could see it. And it's not like even clear that the show has started. But I'm staring right at these people doing it. And then I take out my microphone and I start singing this thing over and over. and then I start going up to people on the street and they're running. So there's an audience behind the window in the art gallery, but I'm out in the street almost going to get arrested. So I better get back in the art gallery. But it was fun for me because I knew I was thinking audience and how do I make this even more dimensional? How do I make it even more like they're not expecting that?
SPEAKER_04
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And it was so fun. But it's available on YouTube really, it's like out there for the whole public to see and there I am not acting quite like Barbara Manning.
SPEAKER_06
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Was that from just this this summer?
SPEAKER_04
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Yeah, it's under like if you look up glands of external secretion and Edinburgh, that's probably where you'd find it, but it might be under fruit market gallery too. I'm not sure. But it's very fun. It's only 25 minutes long. And the guys I was playing with, they're so wonderful. And, oh, there were so many brilliant people in that group. Very fun. So I don't know why I told you that. I think
SPEAKER_06
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audience.
SPEAKER_04
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I think audience, yeah, that you can do it even when it's weird music or if it's, I mean, completely. This drummer, Han Bennett, when he's playing, he gets off of his drums and runs around the drums, but he's still playing the drums. And I'm sure maybe that's not the only person who's ever done that. But I was amazed by it. I was so amazed. But he's definitely thinking audience blowing us away, really. I guess every single drum souls always thinking audience, isn't it? That's where they're doing it.
SPEAKER_06
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Maybe, even if they're only just thinking about the other drummers in the audience. But think that idea of think audience is, you if I think back to, I mean, I was in Chapel Hill in the late 90s. So I was there a little after the real heyday. But there was a certain thing in those days, and maybe it still counts as thinking audience, but of being kind of blase or not giving it, being cool and innocent. I'm not putting that on Chapel Hill in particular, but -
SPEAKER_04
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No, kind of indie rock in a way
SPEAKER_04
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to not make a big deal out of what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00
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Right.
SPEAKER_04
00:28:34
To dress the same as the audience. Yeah, or
SPEAKER_06
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to dress the same as you were dressed earlier that day. And I don't know, did you become aware that that puts you at odds with any sort of sort of prevailing feeling in the air? Or
SPEAKER_04
00:28:50
I kind of feel like I was similar, in the sense that I didn't really have that. I didn't have really that revelation until later. I feel like it came after touring a lot. Because I started touring all the time. I was touring with go lucky so often, it was great for quite a few years. But during the times I was in San Francisco, during the times of your book, your fine book, which I love. And, and I think that I like the title too, even though I think lots of people care.
SPEAKER_06
00:29:31
Oh, yeah, I think that's
SPEAKER_04
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you can't have that time again, you can never make it won't happen again. It's not possible to live there and have that
SPEAKER_04
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experience again. But I think that it was really hard to do the music that I was doing at the time. And I was not loved as much for my music, as the Thinking Fellows were, for being so outside and taking so many risks and doing things that people are not expecting. People really revere them even more so now, I feel. And that's much dessert. I wouldn't take it away from them. But for me, going to the house parties and hanging out with my pals, I knew my place in the sense that I've always been very, very proud of my music. You can tell me that it's not good, but I think it's awesome. But it may not be the thing that is what people respect. And that is probably why I really wasn't in the scene with Turkington our ever I didn't never wanted to be in Carolina. I never wanted to be
SPEAKER_06
00:30:44
you're the only person who wasn't. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04
00:30:47
I would drive Brooks around. I mean, we were pals at first.
SPEAKER_04
00:30:54
But I didn't mind seeing them. I them many times. I enjoyed them. And I enjoyed the nuttiness of it. But yeah, it's not what I want to do. And I just I feel like the things that I have to do are literally like, they're like in the air and inside my body. And somehow, those two things meet and then it comes out and then I'm really pleased that it's there. Those songs. But I just don't think it's something that I'm preconceiving so much. You know what I mean? Like, it is, like you said, it isn't a persona. It isn't got a complicated backstory. And it isn't trying to confuse people. Like, for instance, the World of Pooh record that got reissued. The
SPEAKER_04
00:31:43
spine is something else. And so it's just, I told Brandon, no, no, no, don't do that. It's just gonna get lost. He goes, exactly that. So that that kind of that kind of attitude. That wasn't the way I was looking at it, but was I ambitious? No, I wasn't very ambitious. And I kind of did resent the ambition that I saw, like, let's just say, well, better not to say, but some other musicians that were around me in the scene definitely wanted to get famous. And that was just something that was like, yeah, forget it. I'm glad that it didn't go further than it did. It's perfect.
SPEAKER_06
00:32:44
When you went back, because I've been listening to the Chico Days thing, and I gathered that it was sort of after you had been in Germany and done a lot of traveling, you kind of made decision to go back to school in Chico and how long were you there and what was that time like?
SPEAKER_04
00:33:06
It was, I'm trying to think of exactly what year, 2002, I think. Well actually that's when I went to Chico. I was in, for one year before that, like the 2000 -2001 semester, I think it was, And then 2000. Yeah, that would have been right. So the first I came back from Germany and I was living with my mom on her land, and she has a school bus, and I had this teeny, teeny little trailer like it's really just like a bed on wheels. but it was a room and I would, so I lived in there and I would play my guitar and I wrote a lot of songs during that time that came out for Go Lucky's record called You Should Know By Now. And pretty much most of the songs were written in that trailer.
SPEAKER_04
00:34:00
It's then I went back to school at the time and I went to community college. I thought I wanted to be a forester. I actually really was interested in being a dendrologist, which would be the study of tree diseases. And I got really far in my quest. I even got as far as the year that I graduated in 06, I got a job as a ranger, but it was like a G3 or something really low on the scale. And what I discovered was that it was more like like a, like a policeman or something, or, you know, person that would write tickets or, or, or for sure, it was somebody that was doing samples of trees so that you could figure out when you could clear cut them. Things like that, that were
SPEAKER_04
00:34:59
just, yeah, it was just beyond what I wanted. I mean, it wasn't what I wanted. And the reason why I took biology, though, was because I went to the music department to find out, hey, I'm ready and I'd like to take the recording arts. I've been putting out records for years now. And they're like, well, you're gonna have to wait five years because there's a waiting list to get into our recording department. And I thought, I don't have those five years. So let me walk around and think about it. And I was walking around and I saw, people coming out of the chemistry department in the lab coats and I just thought, that's what I want right there, wearing a lab coat.
SPEAKER_04
00:35:42
So I got my wish many years later. Wasn't that big of a deal, but I picked, I basically picked something I don't know anything about and had to start really, really at the bottom. And I'm absolutely glad I learned all about it because I love knowing, I love knowing it. And then I don't know if I've already told you about this before, but I was having a real hard time with school, like staying employed. And I went through this really bad, another bad school, like just brought me down. The admin was the worst. And I mean, I love this, the kids and the teachers, but I did not like the people in charge. And I was just feeling really low. And so I decided to take some time off. And then I just said, well, I'm not gonna just take time off. I'm gonna learn something. So I got, I was able to earn a credential in physics, but you had to take it for an entire year with no breaks. So I did, and I earned it. And then I figured that I would be teaching older kids now instead of biology, which is ninth grade, and they all hate it. And they changed the thing in California. Now, ninth grade is physics. But that same time I got hired for drama and theater, which was, I also have a credential in. And so it was just a surprise. I wasn't expecting ever to be able to teach that. in LA, where there's a million actors, probably have credentials.
SPEAKER_04
00:37:24
It's just been amazing. And then this year I also was given a new class. It's the guitar class. And I'm just, it's so fun. I love it so much. And to be in a room full of like 40 kids that want to play guitar so much. Like I always start with, okay, everyone, you can make some noise, go. And they all like, shroom, shroom, shroom, shroom, shroom, shroom. It was so great. But they're gonna be learning. They're gonna, oh, they're gonna know stuff. And they're always begging, Cleve, for us. I'm like, not yet, not yet.
SPEAKER_06
00:38:04
That's good news. Yeah, cause those years when I was teaching high school were, it was a small, small private school out in the sunset.
SPEAKER_06
00:38:14
it, but they were, it was kind of like a lot of them were there because they had gotten kicked out of other schools. And it
SPEAKER_03
00:38:21
just
SPEAKER_06
00:38:21
felt like
SPEAKER_03
00:38:23
a
SPEAKER_04
00:38:24
magnet for science, huh?
SPEAKER_06
00:38:26
Well, it was like neither one of us, it was like this thing where, okay, I'm in there and I'm not feeling like I'm equipped to do the kind of job that I'd like to do. And they don't really
SPEAKER_05
00:38:36
want to
SPEAKER_06
00:38:36
be there. And we're all kind of like, at some level, aware that this is not working or serving us. And the same time, I don't have, you know, to reinvent education on the fly, it was not something within my abilities as much as like, I know that the system that we have is, has so many flaws and it's this factory type system.
SPEAKER_06
00:39:04
Absolutely. So, so like trying to find, trying to find something within that, that will pay the bills and that you don't hate is, is like really hard. So I'm happy to hear that you've gotten.
SPEAKER_04
00:39:16
Oh, so, I mean, it can change to all, you know, in next year. So I've been through up and down with teaching. It's just been heartbreaking, but I, I think maybe because of that, like I'm on my eighth year now, I feel like I really know how to appreciate what I've got. Like I really do enjoy it. And then very much because the subject matter is right up my alley, like drama and theater.
SPEAKER_04
00:39:44
I am exactly perfect for that. And, and also I really make a big, like a dress much more flamboyantly than normal. And, and I am really outgoing with the students. Like I go out into the lunch area and I'm looking around for the weirdos, you know, and this kid zooms by me in a cape. And I'm like, that's the weirdo I've been looking for. I find him, you know, and I come up to him and I go, you are the bravest kid here. And he has the biggest smile and I give him a flyer. I'm like, join the drama club, get involved in our show. And he did, he was in one of our plays and his family told me how it was really meaningful to him to be involved. He was a natural, he was so funny.
SPEAKER_04
00:40:38
The only sad thing is he was a senior, so I lost him already, you know? But, oh my goodness. I think that's what I'm supposed to do is go out and find the, you know, the broken artists and give them encouragement and show them they can be themselves. And that's what it feels like in the guitar class, too, because it is packed. It is packed. This is hard to find another space. Those kids are eager. There's not one kid that's not there. Wait. They're all there, but I mean, there's not. Wait. How did I say that? I got mixed up. They're all very enthusiastic.
SPEAKER_06
00:41:20
A lot of times they're there physically, but not otherwise.
SPEAKER_04
00:41:26
So far, what I see in that guitar class is an eagerness I have never experienced before. And it's just delightful. It's really great. It's just adorable. It makes me so happy. And I know that feeling. When I was 14 and I first got a
SPEAKER_03
00:41:42
guitar, I slept with my guitar.
SPEAKER_04
00:41:45
I took it everywhere. I took it everywhere. I just, I couldn't be without it. And I don't feel that way anymore. It's so nice to see teenagers feel enthusiastic about music.
SPEAKER_06
00:42:02
Yeah, and slight turn back the music that was recorded on the Chico days I was looking looking up on Discogs and trying to figure out, it seems like those were a few different bands that were maybe short lived and
SPEAKER_04
00:42:17
you recorded some stuff? Completely. It's very oatmeal. And I can tell you that maybe that was like,
SPEAKER_04
00:42:25
probably the worst, worst, worst time for me was living that period in Chico because I just felt like I was such I was not succeeding. The only thing I could succeed in was my job. Like I was the DJ for KCHO and I had also a show on KVMR. No, not KVMR, excuse me, KZFR. And those were my, like, those were the best things. And a couple of friends that I had. But outside of that, really, I just could not keep a band together. I couldn't keep a relationship together and I'd lose a cat. It was so hard. It was so lonely during that time. And being a student at the age I was in was difficult because nobody really wanted to be around me. And I hate being ignored. I
SPEAKER_06
00:43:29
was an old graduate student, especially by
SPEAKER_06
00:43:31
the end of it, so I can relate somewhat. But were, I mean, it musically, it doesn't come across as, you know, it's not like, bleak music. There are a couple of songs, the first song and then also, what, Better By Bounds. I actually had to look up the credits, because, like, are those covers? I thought they could have been covers of, like, some lost classic country songs because they have this, there's a very timeless feeling to them that it's the kind of song that as a listener sounds like it was effortless to write, regardless of whether it was or not. But it doesn't sound like somebody was laboring over this chord change or this chord change or how long to make this part. It's just kind of like it came out. So I guess what I'm trying to connect back to is that at the same time, you know, I can only imagine what it would have been like, you're there, you're still making music of that caliber. But it's completely ignored. 180 180
SPEAKER_04
00:44:40
nobody cares. Right? Barely record it. Yeah. Yeah. I I the time Mac from Superchunk called me. I really surprised to hear from him, but also I was really thrilled that he would think of me. And he invited me to put a song on the Merge. I don't remember what it's called, but it was people doing covers of things that were on Merge. And I knew exactly what song I wanted to do instantly. Like I wasn't like, oh, I have to think about the song. I knew I wanted to do Through With People, which is a Porter, Porter static song. That's the way you say his name. Yeah. Yeah. And I was thinking Porter shit.
SPEAKER_04
00:45:26
And I'm like, nope, that's not
SPEAKER_03
00:45:27
the same.
SPEAKER_04
00:45:29
I love that song and I have for years. And so it was weird. Like as soon as he asked me, I knew I wanted to do that song, but I just couldn't record it. I just like, I'm like, how do I record it? He's like, we'll just get it. You know, there's no money in it. Just record it. And I was like, Mac, there's, I have nothing. I don't even have a computer. Like I have to go to my work to use a computer.
SPEAKER_04
00:45:53
And so he said, okay, here's, you know I'm gonna send you a hundred bucks. And I gave the hundred bucks to the guy who recorded it in his living room. And he also played drums on it and got his nephew or his, somebody of his relative to play absolutely amazing guitar on it. And it was really lucky because it came out magical. I think it really came out well, but that was a surprise and I I was really desperate in those days like just
SPEAKER_00
00:46:22
Yeah
SPEAKER_04
00:46:24
All right, it was really definitely one of the most difficult times I've ever lived was during those times making very little money working radio and Trying to go to school
SPEAKER_00
00:46:49
Born alone, die alone, shit alone, cry alone, eat alone,
SPEAKER_06
00:47:23
This is not the kind of question I usually ask but what do you think of as high points from that period in between San Francisco and back in Chico when you were sort of nomadic. Mm
SPEAKER_04
00:47:35
-hmm. When I was living in and when I got to live in Germany. Okay.
SPEAKER_06
00:47:40
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04
00:47:40
Like, oh, it's amazing. Wow. I flew to Germany on one of those cargo planes, there's like 500 bucks. And, and I landed in the middle of Germany, in a place called Darmstadt, where I have a friend, and she had a little daughter. So I started off sort of just taking care of her daughter, which is my goddaughter, actually. And, know, not for pay, but I would live with her, will live with them. But again, this situation of, I mean, I just always get this sense of, am I holding my own? Like, am I contributing to, I always feel kind of guilty if I'm not contributing money to something. Sometimes just work isn't enough, you know. I ended up doing some music in the South of Germany. And then I met the twins, which are the members of the Go Luckies. They're twin brothers, half German and half Italian, Flavio and Fabrizio.
SPEAKER_04
00:48:48
And that, it doesn't take much to rejuvenate my musical bones. But you know, all I need is somebody who wants to do it with me and is excited about it. And we get along and then that's there you go, I'm ready. And then I start writing and it sort of woke me up and I wrote a whole bunch of stuff for the go luckies. We were always putting something out. And we were touring all the time just so fun. It got it just was so it got to a point where we were regulars at places. So we would always play Christmas in Berlin, in East Berlin, at this place called the Wild at Heart. And they would have us every year at Christmas. And then on New Year's, I would play in Munich and they would bill me as just Barbara and the Galuckies
SPEAKER_04
00:49:38
because it was so normal. Like I would just play there so often. And I loved it so much. There was a guy who was following us around, he was going to make a movie, but when he found out that I had no money to give him to make the movie, he sort of lost interest. But that was a time when I was playing very well. It was really tight. We would play for two hours and we would always be adding new things, so it felt like a very well -disciplined musician for a while there.
SPEAKER_04
00:50:08
I was really proud of that. But then I just had this another one of those revelations that I am living off of them. I started feeling like, wow, I'm living with the twins and their parents whom I love. I love them like parents, but I'm living off of them. And it just, wow, it was like a shock when I realized it. They didn't tell me but I felt it and so that was when I said, I've got to go back and go back to school and Go back to Yeah, I've got to do something because I can't keep music going And when I'm seeing things that I didn't expect to be way way more popular than me Like there's countless of bands that I could just drop their names But it would be so mean but lots of bands where I'm just like
SPEAKER_03
00:51:01
they got super popular. It's
SPEAKER_04
00:51:04
really Wow. Okay. All right. People are missing out, but I kind of came to peace with it. I know. I still feel pretty comfortable with my anonymity. I like to say this, I can go almost everywhere and I'll find one really true fan. And sometimes I'll find a hundred, But not many more than that. So I really can't say that I'm. Yeah, I'm still very, very unknown.
SPEAKER_04
00:51:42
But in a great way. Really great way. I know
SPEAKER_06
00:51:48
it was probably at no point a full time, like, fully able to live off the music.
SPEAKER_04
00:51:54
Oh, it was for. During the Matador days, that's what I did. I lived off the music. Yeah. Okay. I was making great music. I mean, great money, music too, but I was able to pay everyone. Okay. Any tour I went on during the Matador days, the people who went on tour with me would have the month they were gone, their rent paid, plus they'd have a per diem, and plus they'd get the profits split. and yeah we okay I and like going to New Zealand I paid for John and Joey to go um again once again taking care of their bills and their rent and um and I had money you know money to spare it was a fun time because I really I don't know if it's just because I'm a Sagittarius or not I don't know because I think it's one of the traits of the sign but I really
SPEAKER_04
00:52:48
I'm bad with money, and I love spending it on other people. So I'm kind of, like, if I have the money, I'm like, let's
SPEAKER_03
00:52:56
do it.
SPEAKER_04
00:52:58
You know, so, and that was those days. And that was the thing I thought I was going to get, you know, 50 ,000 a year just for music, which only lasted a couple years. But then it really made a real spiral drop. And when I couldn't get on Merge, that was a real blow. Cause I thought that would be my next place. That would be, you know, Merge is full of my friends. But no, no. And then, you know, just sort of all these things had to kind of slowly take their effect in my brain and go, Oh, that's
SPEAKER_03
00:53:38
not where
SPEAKER_04
00:53:38
I belong. That's not where my, that's not my stature anymore. That's not who I am, I guess. But the songs never really, they always had to just come out. It didn't matter if there's an audience for them or not.
SPEAKER_06
00:53:58
I'm just sort of trying to put myself in that position of like, yeah, you you're, this is your thing, and then how humbling it was, but that you did, you know, you persevered, you did, you were still recording music. And it seems like that you've reemerged. I mean, that was this time going over to Scotland, the first time that you've toured in some time?
SPEAKER_04
00:54:23
Yeah, it pretty much. Yeah. Like this year has been sort of funny that way where I played Chicago, Minneapolis, two London shows Sheffield and Manchester and England, Edinburgh, Inverness and Glasgow. And I'm going to play the East Coast with Codeine in November. So I get to do Philadelphia and Washington DC and Boston and New York. And that's in November. If you were to look at
SPEAKER_04
00:55:00
any of my other date books that I keep every year you know there hasn't been I'll play once a year for somebody who wants me and they'll pay me to fly out but usually that's it and it's just been magical I love it I'm so happy because I know it doesn't last and And it really mattered a lot to have people tell me, and I know, Will, you must understand this, that, you know, with your book, it's like, you got to, like, let them tell you how good it is and how great it makes them feel, because that's what I was experiencing on the road just now, is people telling me really important, it was really important for them to tell me it, that how much it mattered. And of course it mattered to me that they told me that I mattered, right? But wow, it's, you know, the depth of how they feel about it is hard to realize. That's like, it was sort of like, wow, this can't be true. It can't be about me, you know, but it really matters to some people.
SPEAKER_04
00:56:14
one. And that's what I got out of that tours, is that even if I don't tour again, or something, you know, God forbid happens to me tomorrow. Wow, I got that experience. I got that experience where people hadn't seen me in 20 years or 30 years and, and they've been listening to me the whole time. And it matters that they got to tell me. Wow.
SPEAKER_06
00:56:39
It's almost too bad that you couldn't like, take out a loan during the Chico days and say, because I again keep referring back to these interviews and I was trying to find it but it was yeah you had this was maybe yeah 2015 you had said when they asked if you were still playing music you said no that that not having enough time to do a good job and then you said I thought this was poignant it said the work seems overwhelming Instead, I quietly play weird covers on our back porch and tell myself I did enough records for one person. But very bittersweet in the sense of the path that you have sort of traced out. And it seemed like there obviously there was some regret, but sort of zen as well. But things have changed since then. And so that's, that's good.
SPEAKER_04
00:57:38
Well, I don't know if anything's changed except that I got these opportunities that I'm taking because I don't think that, I mean, I don't want to not see something for what it is, but
SPEAKER_04
00:57:51
it was just sort of a break, like a lucky break. For instance, in England, somebody really wanted me to play solo there, so he paid my way to go over. And then I was able to get all these other shows. And then the Coding thing, I think they remembered a good time with me 30 years ago when we took a train, Coding and I were on the same, we had the same booking agent or just agent or something. Somebody was working with the two of us and put us on the same bill and we had never met, but we got on a train and we had like amazing time talking. and we're friends ever since. And Chris Brokaw is somebody that I've kept in contact with throughout the years, just because he's always trying to still be a musician. And I mean, he is always a musician, but he's trying to make money at it. And he's in lots and lots of different musical outfits that are great that I've collected over the years.
SPEAKER_04
00:59:01
So I've kept up with him in a bit. And then I think that it was just, they remembered that I was out there and I hadn't played in a long time. So when he contacted me, I actually said, hey, Chris, this is Barbara Manning. I think you might've sent this to the wrong person because he's saying, hey, do you wanna go on tour with us for four days? And I'm like, yeah, I do want to, and I'm sure you sent this to the wrong person. And he's like, No, no, we want you, Barb. So that'll
SPEAKER_06
00:59:34
be November.
SPEAKER_04
00:59:35
Yeah, November. I mean, it's just chant. It's a lucky break. And, and the two those two shows are those two tours had nothing to do with each other at all. And they could have happened two different years or something, but it just happens to be the same year. And then the Chicago and the Minneapolis shows have to do a lot with a friend that passed away a few years ago that I was wanting to honor his the day he died, I wanted to play a show and have his friends come and,
SPEAKER_04
01:00:10
and then from there, I got an opportunity to play in Minneapolis with one of his relatives. And just coincidence that it's the same year. Now, if it could keep going, I'd be so happy. I do wanna kind of stir the pot myself a bit. I wanna go to Scandinavia. I in contact with somebody from Scandinavia that said that they would love to have me there. So that's something that I wanna work on. And it's the same with the England shows. I had one show booked for me and the rest fell in my lap. Like, as soon as it was known I was coming, I got shows offered. And so, it's amazing. It's just amazing. I just can't imagine it's gonna keep going like that though.
SPEAKER_06
01:01:21
I don't have a grand closing question, but I was thinking about how, in a sense, I mythologize San Francisco, and I've talked with other people about, you know, some people would have that feeling about Japan. And I could be wrong, but for you, a couple of those places, one might have been New Zealand, and then the other one could have been the UK because of rough trade. Yeah, what was it like to actually finally go to a place or experience, say, with New Zealand? Because I know that you'd been listening to a lot of those musicians for a long time, and then you're playing with them. And then same thing with Young Marvel Giants and was it a pinching yourself kind of feeling or was it, how do you compare them if there was mythologizing with the actual experience?
SPEAKER_04
01:02:16
I can remember very well playing with, in New Zealand, in Dunedin, I had John and Joey from Clexico. They weren't Clexico yet. But, you know, those guys playing behind me as a rhythm section. And then me on the guitar. We had already toured. And so we were pretty copacetic together. But I wanted to have David Kilgore, one of my most favorite musicians from the clean, and I wanted Graham Downs, another one of my most favorite bands from the Verlaine's in the same band, they, as far as I know, they never played together, even though they're from the same
SPEAKER_04
01:03:00
town. And, and so at one point, I've got one of them on one side of me and one of them on the other. And I, yeah, I, it was like, I would have pinched myself, but I was, my hands were wrapped around a guitar. But I remember just looking at one side and turning around looking at the other and going, I am so lucky. I can hardly stand it. So special. I think a lot of times you have to, I mean, this could sound so cliche, but you have to make things happen that you want to happen. You have to really get that ball rolling first. And you have to do a lot of work. But a lot of times, once you get into that groove, things just fall into place. They just happen, they open up for you. And even when I've been just so down and out, I knew that the cycle's gonna change. Things turn around, they get better. And they get worse too, which I'm afraid of.
SPEAKER_02
01:04:09
♪ Thank the Lord, now our love is better by the
SPEAKER_00
01:04:17
You and I have had a hard time of it.
SPEAKER_02
01:04:27
We fight so long to make romance fit. Holdin' back all the horns Then knock each one down Thank the Lord, now our love
SPEAKER_00
01:04:51
Is better by bounds
SPEAKER_02
01:04:55
Bitter words full of doubt Meltdowns and shouts Like a child I will find
SPEAKER_00
01:05:11
Myself acting out While you with your wall up
SPEAKER_02
01:05:20
Not making a sound Thank the Lord
SPEAKER_00
01:05:26
Now our love Is better by bounds
SPEAKER_02
01:05:34
Once our love couldn't withstand the rain We learned to give shelter from our storming rage Thank the Lord, now our love is better by bounds.